Interview with the President of the Government of Spain. Mañaneros 360. TVE.

INTERVIEW WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE GOVERNMENT OF SPAIN

Mañaneros 360, TVE

Conducted: Wednesday, 9 September 2026

Jesús Cintora: President of the Government of Spain. Thank you for joining us on public television. Welcome to TVE. Good morning.

Response: Good morning.

Jesús Cintora: Have you been caught bending the rules with the "Grandchildren Law," as the opposition claims? They accuse you of electoral engineering - of attempting to rig the vote. Do you view the decision regarding the vote and the Grandchildren Law as a major setback?

Response: Firstly, we must remind viewers that we are talking about the Law on Democratic Memory, which recognised the relatives - grandsons and granddaughters - of people who were exiled as a result of the dictatorship and the Civil War. Therefore, it is a law that seeks to reclaim and champion the best version of Spain - that of the Second Republic - which suffered a coup d'état at the hands of those whose descendants are now trying to curtail these citizens' rights, just as they previously forced them into exile - often, to a large extent, to Latin American countries.

Secondly, this law has been in force since 2022. It should be remembered that in 2023 a general election was held, in which, incidentally, the People's Party won the overseas vote, altering the results in various provincial constituencies in favour of the People's Party and to the detriment of the Socialist Party. Furthermore, not only the Government of Spain but also the Central Electoral Board took a positive stance on the recognition of these citizenship rights. The question we must therefore ask is why the People's Party is now changing its position on a law that has been in force for several years, under which elections have been held and in which Spanish citizens living abroad have taken part. I believe there is an underlying trend, a common thread of scepticism on the part of the far right - and also of a right wing that is becoming increasingly extreme - regarding democratic systems and alleged hoaxes designed to facilitate electoral fraud, which, unfortunately, we have seen in major democracies such as the United States.

We therefore neither support nor agree with the Supreme Court's ruling. We have asked them to try to resolve this as soon as possible - certainly before the 2027 elections - and we regret once again that the People's Party has embraced the views of the far right.

Esther Palomera: Mr President, good morning. The very same Supreme Court that has provisionally suspended the naturalisation of those covered by the 'grandchildren's law' is also the one throwing obstacles in the path of the full implementation of the Amnesty Law. Are we witnessing a clash between branches of the State? Do you feel that the judiciary is determining the course of this legislative term?

Response: I believe there are differences of opinion regarding the interpretation of certain laws Parliament is passing. However, the Amnesty Law already has the backing of the Constitutional Court and the European Court of Justice. Furthermore, we are seeing its positive political and institutional effects in Catalonia - with a constitutionalist leader like President Illa - where coexistence and understanding are being fostered among pro-independence political forces. These are groups that previously supported, nothing less than, a unilateral declaration of independence, yet today are engaging in mainstream politics. I believe these are positive elements that place Spain, despite the difficulties we may face, whether regarding Ceuta or housing, in one of the best periods it has experienced in decades.

Esther Palomera: Yes, but I was asking about the clash between branches of the State. Are we in that situation?

Response: There may well be a difference of opinion, of course, regarding the interpretation of certain laws being passed democratically by the State's General Courts - laws whose outcome, for instance in Catalonia or regarding the Amnesty Law, is frankly positive for the citizenry - both Catalan and Spanish - who simply want to turn the page. We're talking about 2017. I think we need to look to the president and the future, rather than dwelling on the past. I also believe they grow stronger when they are generous - when they are capable, as the European Court of Justice told us, of crafting laws that foster coexistence rather than polarising and fracturing it, as has unfortunately been the case for many years.

Jesús Cintora: Mr. President, regarding the Ceuta crisis: Right now, that's where the problem lies. More than 70,000 people managed to enter an Autonomous City with a population of just over 80,000. Any self-criticism? What went wrong? Is there anything you would say could have been done differently? Because it is a problem and, to a large extent, it is still there. Any self-criticism...

Response: I believe there are two areas in which the State needs to improve. One is how we prepare for hybrid attacks of this nature. And two, how the autonomous cities - in this case, Melilla and Ceuta - prepare for a structural reality: the disparity in per capita income and opportunities between one side of the border and the other. I always say that Ceuta and Melilla are the only two land borders that not only Spain but also Europe has in Africa. That gives them a very unique status. And I believe that, of course, we need to invest more in border control and perimeter security. We have invested heavily; we are set to invest around 180 million euros in the border during my time leading the Government. Secondly, I believe that, just as we did during other migration crises - for example, in the Canary Islands in 2020 and 2021 - I believe it is also important to recognise that we need larger-scale reception facilities for arriving migrants; in the case of Ceuta, I think this crisis makes that quite obvious. It can't be right that we have centres that only accommodate 1,000 people. We are currently looking to increase the number of active places to 6,000 because, in order to process deportations or grant asylum to those entitled to it, the first thing we need to do is register them. This requires infrastructure, which the Government of Spain is certainly expanding, but when it comes to children, this falls within Ceuta's remit, and we need to work together to make it happen.

Jesús Cintora: But Mr President, speaking of self-criticism and the political optics of the moment ... You are facing criticism... You speak of an attack on Spain's territorial integrity, yet shortly after, you go on holiday to the Canary Islands. Do you consider that a mistake? Would you do it again? Do you think you should have spent more time in Ceuta in August?

Response: I am the President of the Government of Spain who has visited Ceuta more than any other. I have, of course, been working throughout August - accompanied, incidentally, by my dear friends from far-right organisations, who were constantly keeping tabs on my movements, as well as by certain so-called digital media outlets, which were also constantly taking photos of us. So, in their company, I worked, but I also asserted the right to rest that any worker has - and, by extension, any politician in this country. But I have been right there on the front lines; we have been there since the very first minute of the Ceuta crisis.

And with regard to border controls, just a few days ago I heard the Leader of the Opposition say he would be willing to invoke the article of the Constitution that would - faced with the dilemma confronting State law enforcement forces and agencies on 30 and 31 July, given the surge of young people and civilians arriving at Ceuta's borders - essentially imply an armed response to that crisis. I find that absolutely outrageous. Firstly, because we are not talking about invaders, but about people who, for the most part, are seeking a better life and opportunities that they do not have on the other side of the border. Because social inequalities do exist. There is an eightfold difference in per capita income levels between one side of the border and the other. And, secondly, because if that really is the solution proposed by the People's Party and Vox, then in the event of a crisis like the one we experienced on 30 and 31 July, we would now be facing an even greater crisis, not only in Ceuta, but also in our bilateral relations with Morocco. And, of course, it would present a rather lamentable international image.

Esther Palomera: Mr. President, I quote: "If Morocco sings, he has to go". These are the words spoken just this morning by the leader of the opposition in the Lower House of Parliament. Do you feel you are being blackmailed by Morocco?

Response: The Government of Spain - and I, in particular, as President of the Government of Spain - may be criticised for many things, but I certainly believe that the Government of Spain has pursued a coherent and consistent foreign policy that respects international law, European law and also domestic law, that is, national law.

When we had to tell the US President that we were not going to spend 5 per cent of our budget, as a proportion of GDP, on defence, I believe we put forward our arguments, we tried to reach an agreement, and we succeeded in doing so with the NATO Secretary-General. When we have had to address the Middle East - the crisis in Iran, or the situation in Ukraine, or the genocide in Palestine and Gaza - we have done so with absolute clarity.

Look, this government, of course, never gives in to blackmail. Firstly, because it's not our style; and secondly, because we've got nothing to hide.

In fact, following the decision made yesterday by the Council of Ministers, all the papers and documents - those prepared by the State law enforcement forces and agencies, the National Intelligence Centre, and the Armed Forces during the days leading up to the surge, as well as the subsequent period up to 1 August - will be made public today.

Esther Palomera: Those documents you have just mentioned - the contents of which we will soon learn, and which are due to be declassified - also contain internal communications between government departments. Based on the information you have at present, do you think that anyone in the government - any department - could have raised the alarm but failed to do so?

Response: We have had the opportunity to read all the reports that are being released today. Regarding the situation reports: indeed, in the days leading up to 30 and 31 July, a slight spike in the number of people swimming into the Autonomous City of Ceuta was recorded - a matter that was the subject of meetings not only between various government departments but also with the Autonomous City of Ceuta itself. However, we are talking about hundreds of people. We were certainly not talking about 70,000 people potentially crossing the border.

Therefore, it is evident - returning to the need for self-criticism regarding anticipation, prevention and possessing intelligence sophisticated enough to detect in the digital realm how such significant movements, like those seen on 30 and 31 July, might unfold - that this is one area where we need to improve.

However, I must stress that, from the point of view of the content - the situation reports drawn up by all parties, whilst I do not wish to detract from their professionalism, of course - a mass arrival of such a large number of migrants was not foreseen at all.

It is a different matter, however, that in response to those alerts regarding a spike - which, incidentally, is quite typical during the months of June, July and August - we did increase the presence of State law enforcement forces and agencies at the border; we enhanced our capabilities in light of the Supreme Court ruling on entries by swimming; we began work on deploying a physical containment barrier at sea, the buoys we started rolling out on 1 August; and we began collaborating with Moroccan authorities on how to respond to this new reality resulting from that Supreme Court ruling on migration.

But I must stress, all this hyperbole adopted by the right and the far right, which dehumanises migrants and children by calling them 'invaders' - and includes serious accusations claiming the Government of Spain is based in Rabat, as we have heard today in the General Courts - well, what it demonstrates is that, unfortunately, those seeking to entrench the problem are not helping Ceuta; on the contrary, they are using Ceuta as a political weapon to undermine the government.

In the face of this, as we have done throughout every crisis - be it the pandemic, Putin's war in Ukraine and its impact on the cost of living (particularly energy costs), or the war in the Middle East - all the crises we have experienced - we will respond to them just as we are responding to this one: through unity and institutional loyalty. That is the only way we will be able to resolve, as quickly as possible, this humanitarian crisis affecting Ceuta.

Jesús Cintora: Mr President, we would appreciate a concise answer on this point - I believe it is easy to give one, if you are willing. Regarding the King's visit to Ceuta: is there a date being considered or discussed? Will it take place in September, for example?

Response: Well, the fact is that I believe - and we can all agree on this - that Ceuta needs the support and affection of all institutions today; it is evidently more than justified, and more necessary than ever, for the Head of State to visit the Autonomous City of Ceuta and, consequently, the Autonomous City of Melilla as well. The dates will be announced jointly by the Government of Spain and the Royal Household, and what I can tell you at this stage is that we are working on dates in the near future.

Jesús Cintora: But by "near future," do you mean this month? Is it most likely to happen after the elections in Morocco? Is that the possibility being considered?

Response: Well, let me work with the Royal Household on that. But that official visit will be to both autonomous cities. I believe that, particularly in the Autonomous City of Ceuta, it is more necessary than ever.

Jesús Cintora: Regarding the court investigation: Minister Óscar Puente pointed out Judge María Tardón's past, noting that she was on the People's Party's list of candidates for Madrid City Council. It was also reported in the media today that, at the proposal of Madrid City Council - led by the People's Party - she served on the assembly of Caja Madrid. Does this give you cause to doubt María Tardón's ability to carry out her duties as a judge - given that she is responsible for investigating, and will be investigating, the mass influx of migrants?

Response: Well, I think it's a fact; it's an objective fact. She was a councillor for Madrid City Council's Executive Committee; incidentally, I was also a councillor for Madrid City Council, though we didn't serve at the same time, as I believe she held that post whilst Álvarez del Manzano was mayor of Madrid. That is an objective fact. But clearly, a person's short-term political commitment is not incompatible with the duties of a judge - in this case, those of Judge Tardón.

We have the utmost confidence and are committed to maximum transparency. We have nothing to hide. The State law enforcement forces and agencies and we ourselves are also carrying out investigations to establish exactly what happened during those days in Morocco. But I would also say that, in the face of all this hyperbole we are seeing in the public debate from certain conservative media outlets or so-called 'pseudo-media', or even from the right and the far right, I believe that the Government of Spain must act on the basis of evidence, not mere indications; it must act responsibly and, of course, proportionately. And I believe that this is not at odds with taking a firm stance, nor with recognising the scale of the humanitarian crisis currently affecting the city of Ceuta, which we must address.

We are currently facing a situation that requires us, for example, to attend to the children present in the Autonomous City of Ceuta. We need to establish their identities and carry out screening. We are working in partnership with the Autonomous City of Ceuta. We are waiting for the Autonomous City of Ceuta to appoint, as stipulated in the European Pact on Migration and Asylum, representatives for these minors, so that we can begin the administrative process to determine whether family reunification is possible in Morocco or, indeed, whether they will remain here with us.

And, naturally, we also look for solidarity from the autonomous communities.

Esther Palomera: Has the Government ruled out distributing migrants amongst the autonomous communities?

Response: We are keeping all options open. What we are evidently prioritising right now is the relocation of all migrants currently in the Autonomous City of Ceuta. That is why we have activated 3,500 of our target of 6,000 places; we began this crisis with just over a thousand, and now we are above 3,500 and on our way to 6,000.

We are also co-funding, alongside the Autonomous City, the places made available for minors. And so, we are still waiting for the Autonomous City of Ceuta to appoint these representatives for the children so that we can register them and, indeed, take steps to protect them.

And on that note, I think that if the People's Party is genuinely interested in resolving the situation in Ceuta and helping to find a solution, well, I would ask them for a bit less hyperbole and a bit more solidarity and responsibility.

Certainly, this type of crisis calls for state-level policies. You can be tough on the Government, of course you can, but if there are institutional responsibilities in areas that also affect the remit of regional governments or autonomous cities - as is the case with Ceuta - well, I ask the People's Party to step up and help. Let them criticise all they want, but they need to step up and help.

Esther Palomera: To the son of Jesús and Judge Tardón. In the court order we saw this week, she states that she intends to investigate the Moroccan government's responsibility, but she also highlights the response given by the Spanish authorities. Do you fear that any of your ministers might have to stand trial before the Supreme Court?

Response: We have reviewed and examined everything that took place in the days leading up to the Supreme Court's judgement of 8 July. For viewers who may not be aware, what that ruling states is that, for those who entered the country by swimming, there was no such thing as 'immediate returns'; returns at the border could not be enforced. As I said earlier, what we did from 8 July onwards was to start working internally and also with the Moroccan authorities, as well as increasing the number of places at the CATE in Ceuta, which is under the Ministry of Home Affairs, to respond to the new migration situation arising from the judgment. On 1 August, to be precise, we began installing those buoys to create physical containment barriers. Secondly, in the days leading up to the surge, meetings did indeed take place between the Autonomous City of Ceuta, the Government Delegation in Ceuta, and officials from various ministries - most notably the Ministry of Home Affairs And as I said, we increased our border capacity to protect ourselves against a surge in irregular migration - though nothing at the time predicted the events we experienced on 30 and 31 July.

And I must stress that the dilemma we faced on 30 and 31 July was the massive influx of young people, including minors - 141 of whom, incidentally, lost their lives during that crisis. The dilemma we faced-which I presented to the General Courts and which I am also putting to the viewers watching this interview - is as follows: What would another government have done? Would it have opened fire on those young people - children, boys and girls?

Or wasn't it smarter to allow them to enter, given that 90 per cent of them left the Autonomous City of Ceuta within the following hours or days?Since 10 August, more than 4,500 people have also returned voluntarily - in addition to those nine out of ten who entered - and we are currently in the process of relocating and screening all these migrants so that, where appropriate, they can be returned to Morocco or, or to allow those entitled to asylum to pursue it.

So, of course, hearing the leader of the opposition say that he would be prepared, no less, to implement a decision of such magnitude, strikes me as extremely serious, to the extent that it makes me wonder what situation we would be in today - not only in Morocco, but also across the world - and what crisis we would have unleashed in Europe had the response not been what it was: a response that, in my view, was intelligently handled by the State law enforcement forces and agencies at the time and which I naturally endorse.

Esther Palomera: Mr President, so that we can move forward and put an end to this phase of the Ceuta crisis. We also want to ask you about that photograph released by the Royal Household. A meeting between King Felipe VI and the Minister for Defence and senior army officers. What message should we take from that photograph? Is this a show of support for Margarita Robles following disagreements with other government ministers, or is it a message the Royal Household intends to send to Morocco?

Response: I think it represents business as usual. Look, these meetings take place on a regular basis. They are held, incidentally, in the presence of the Minister for Defence.

This was on the agenda.

Esther Palomera: But the photograph isn't usually leaked or made public…

Response: Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Well, I believe that the Head of State, as the supreme commander of the Armed Forces, is not only within his rights but also has a responsibility to hold these meetings with the various branches of our Armed Forces and with the Minister for Defence so they can explain the situation unfolding in this Autonomous City. I believe that the Armed Forces, incidentally, have done an extraordinary job over the past few days in ensuring not only security at the border, but also peaceful coexistence within the Autonomous City of Ceuta. It is important to remember that we have more than 3,000 soldiers deployed in this autonomous city, and that we have more than 1,500 Civil Guards and National Police officers deployed in the Autonomous City of Ceuta - almost four times the national average. And so, I believe it is an appropriate, ordinary photograph, and I understand that, given the circumstances in which it was taken, it may be interpreted in certain ways; but it is clearly something quite normal and commonplace when it comes to the duties of the Head of State.

Jesús Cintora: Mr President, it is 11.28 am, one hour earlier in the Canary Islands. We're on 'Mañaneros 360'. Journalism and journalists. The Ministry of Home Affairs is compiling a list of journalists and their alleged ideologies or affiliations. We are being categorised there based on alleged views. This warrants an apology - and I would like to ask if you intend to apologise and why such a list is being created.

Response: Well, I was unaware of it. In any case, Jesús, I can assure you that I find it to be a highly inappropriate document.

However, there is a vast difference between that and accusing us of the very things the opposition does whenever they get the chance - such as threatening to crush journalists or shut down media outlets, or singling out workers - including those at this very station - who, in the legitimate exercise of their duties, analytical skills and personal worldviews, happen to defend one political position or another.And I believe that diversity of opinion is indeed reflected in certain media outlets - specifically, in public media outlets governed by the right - and I think that is precisely what demonstrates who among us believes in freedom of the press and who does not. But if you ask me about this document, it certainly strikes me as ill-advised.

Jesús Cintora: But journalists sometimes find themselves caught up in the fray of political interest or debate, either because their work is being undermined, or because they are misunderstood, or because attempts are made to pigeonhole them or draw up lists that some might regard as blacklists

Response: Personally, I think it's an internal working document. It is a document drawn up by members of the Cabinet, in this case from the Ministry of Home Affairs, specifically the Communications Department. And I must say, I find it to be a very ill-advised document. I can't say any more. What I can assure you, and the journalists, and of course, the media workers, is that the Government of Spain respects the autonomy and independence of the media; it could not be otherwise. I think that also demonstrates the vigour and health of a democracy. But really, for people to lecture me - people who use phone calls to intimidate and threaten media workers, claiming that publishing this or that will lead to their outlet being shut down, while simultaneously using public funds (that is, everyone's tax money) to finance agitators who are clearly far-right extremists with nothing to do with the practice of journalism... Well, I certainly can't accept that.

Esther Palomera: Mr President, former executives of Plus Ultra have also given evidence in court this week and have confirmed that they paid a 1 per cent commission to the Zapatero group for the airline's bailout. Do you think the former President of the Government of Spain remains a moral beacon for the left? And, above all, do you intend to involve him in the upcoming election campaign?

Response: Well, the election campaign will be in 2027…

Esther Palomera: That's not so far off; it's not so far off...

Response: Well, it will be in 2027. But I will say this: I believe that both the track record and the legacy of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero are very important for the Socialist Party. I also believe they are important for Spain - especially in areas concerning real and effective equality between men and women - which requires, or at least, that is my view, that we respect the presumption of innocence. Here, we have heard legitimate defences in which many of these people even have the right to lie in their statements before the judges in order to pursue their own defence strategy. Well, I believe José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. There are media outlets and parties that even believe a criminal like Aldama, who comes along and says all sorts of things… I remember that on one occasion he even claimed he'd once been my chauffeur. And naturally, when I see him making headlines in pseudo-digital outlets or the print press, I think: well, there you have it - credibility is given to a criminal rather than to a public official who, whether you like him or not, is a democratically elected representative with every right to defend himself. I therefore believe in the presumption of innocence in José Luis's case. Let's hope everything can be cleared up. And that is my conviction.

Esther Palomera: Will he be part of the Socialist Party's election campaign, then?

Response: Well, I intend to count on José Luis, just as I always have in election campaigns.

Jesús Cintora: You are calling for the presumption of innocence in this case. Regarding the penthouse - the property at the centre of the controversy involving Isabel Díaz Ayuso - she accuses you of having taken it for granted that the penthouse was intended for her. We are talking about a purchase worth over 6 million euros, made by a public company, for a property in one of Spain's prime locations. Well, there are still some questions to be answered, but you proceeded on the assumption that the penthouse was for Isabel Díaz Ayuso's personal use. What is it based on?

Response: Look, I haven't studied criminology. I'm not a detective.

But let's lay out the facts. You list the two flats on Idealista, which is a property sales platform. One belonging to your partner-or ex-partner, in this case... I'm not sure which. And your own. On Idealista. Your party leader, Mr Feijóo, says that as early as March he was already aware of the intention to relocate - specifically, to move offices. So, there are two pieces of evidence right there. It appears that Ms Ayuso also visited the property. Well, that's the third piece of evidence. I think there's too much evidence clearly suggesting that Ms Ayuso has been caught red-handed. And she wanted, well, I understand it; everyone wants to live near their family...She wanted to live in Chamberí - not just in a penthouse, but in a massive one: 400 square metres, with a 200-square-metre terrace. Furthermore, another piece of evidence - which I believe is a fairly irrefutable indication - is the fact that the property was not used as an office, nor did it have a licence for office use; rather, it was licensed for residential use. So, I think Ms. Ayuso has been caught red-handed. And this opposition - which always sees signs of wrongdoing in very minor matters and is so demanding of the Government - well, I think they have a problem regarding transparency, accountability and accepting responsibility. I understand why Mr. Feijóo might find it difficult to do what Mr. Casado did, given that he saw the consequences of that action. But of course, one must not only say things, but also act in accordance with what one says. And Mr. Feijóo needs to hold Ms. Ayuso accountable.

Jesús Cintora: Regarding your wife, Mr President, do you also feel that she must accept responsibility? Is it a major blow to you that Judge Peinado is on the verge of sending Begoña Gómez - your wife - to trial?

Response: Yes. Well, my wife - as you say, her name is Begoña Gómez - is a professional who gave up her career when I became President of the Government of Spain in 2018. She continued with the teaching duties at the Complutense University of Madrid which she had begun before I was elected Secretary-General of the Socialist Party. I believe Begoña Gómez has not been treated fairly throughout this process, and I hope that justice will be served when the trial begins. After all, you really cannot put David Sánchez or Begoña Gómez in the dock simply because they are my wife or the brother of the President of the Government of Spain. And I believe that is what has happened with David Sánchez, a man who is highly educated and has devoted his entire life to furthering his education, having obtained a degree in Economics, a double degree in composition and orchestral conducting from one of the world's leading conservatoires of music, the St Petersburg Conservatoire, founded by the composer Rimsky-Korsakov, many years ago now, and yet he has been sentenced to nine years' disqualification from public office, despite not being a civil servant, for the offence of which he has been convicted. Of course, we will appeal it; of course will defend the innocence of two people who are, in fact, innocent, and who are sitting in the dock today simply because they are the wife and brother of the President of the Government of Spain.

Jesús Cintora: But you, Mr President, are framing this as what a minister in your government has described as a sort of dirty war waged through the courts - 'lawfare', as it is called - or is the judiciary simply doing its job?

Response: I don't know. I think we'll have to wait and see exactly what happens between now and the end of this whole process, because David Sánchez's sentence is not yet final and because Begoña Gómez's trial has not yet taken place. I must stress - and I do believe in the justice system - that it is important to ask the courts to see that justice is done. But it is nonetheless striking and significant that, in these cases, neither the State Legal Service nor the Public Prosecutor's Office has been able to proceed or felt themselves to be victims - in this instance, of crimes linked to embezzlement and, consequently, the misappropriation of public funds; on the contrary, they are preventing the case from being dismissed and the files closed. I therefore reiterate that what we are seeing here is a campaign by certain far-right groups whose sole aim is to intimidate and threaten all those who do not share their views, crossing red lines, and not merely criticising or attacking the President of the Government of Spain - which, to a certain extent, makes some sense, provided it remains within the bounds of civility and institutional respect for the person holding that office - but now even targeting their family members. I believe this is unprecedented, and I can guarantee you one thing: outside Spain, when I am asked about these matters - for instance, when my wife had her passport confiscated, preventing her from attending a summit to which she had been invited, such as the NATO summit in Turkey - it drew a great deal of attention, and not for the right reasons.

Esther Palomera: Mr President, the National Court is continuing to investigate the Socialist Party's accounts. Recently, the businessman you mentioned - Mr. Aldama - submitted an alleged sham contract worth 15 million euros to the case file. If the Socialist Party is formally investigated, what should the Socialist Party's Secretary-General do?

Response: Point one. Regarding this matter of 15 million euros involving the Socialist Party and the Socialist International - an organisation I preside over... Well, it strikes me as... Anyway. But still, it makes headlines in the media and the print press. A person who is a criminal is given far more credibility than a political organisation that is defending its innocence. We have gone to great lengths to lay everything bare - something that was neither done nor requested by the courts, not even of a political party such as the People's Party during the years it was under investigation for irregular funding in connection with the Bárcenas case, and so on, and so on, and so on. We have laid it all out; we provided the invoices and receipts dating back to - I believe - 2014 or 2017. We handed over absolutely everything. We have also provided all requested information regarding donations, in full compliance with the law. Those accounts have also been approved by the Court of Auditors. What I mean by this is that there is no irregular funding of the Socialist Party. There is none. And I don't know whether charges will be brought against us or not, but I can assure you that there is no irregular funding of the Socialist Party. What is more, a report by Transparency International was published recently, stating that, of the major political parties in the Spanish political system, the Socialist Party is the most transparent, with a score of 83 points - 50 points ahead of the People's Party.

We therefore make transparency and accountability the guiding principles of our work within the organisation. And I can assure you that there is no irregular funding. It is true that we are seeing some surprising findings in the investigations, but I can tell you that, if charges are brought against us, we will, if necessary, defend our innocence and the fact that everything was done by the book. Because, I repeat, there is no irregular funding within the Socialist Party, however much Aldama may say so - 15 million euros, but 15 million euros from where? Really. I think that sometimes - above all - the serious issue isn't so much what he says, but the amplification it receives from certain platforms.

Esther Palomera: Mr President, time is ticking on, and so is the parliamentary calendar. There are just three weeks to go before the constitutional deadline set out in the Constitution for the Government to present next year's General Budget to the Lower House of Parliament. Will you comply with that constitutional requirement this time? Before 30 September?

Response: We will comply with the constitutional requirement to present the budget in 2026; we will begin working with the parliamentary groups in the coming weeks. We are working on this internally, and what I can assure you is that, whilst I do not know the exact date on which we will present the budgets, the budget debate will take place before the end of 2026.

Esther Palomera: Very well. We also wanted to ask you about the elections, of course. Last week, you first raised the possibility of a technical early election. That could mean February, March, or May. Are you still ruling out a 'Super Sunday election?

Response: Yes, absolutely; there will be no "Super Sunday election". I haven't done that - in fact, I have been governing for eight years now. I believe that we have demonstrated our absolute respect for the local and regional elections, and for the right of all mayors to stand before their citizens and for those citizens to vote without any kind of interference - whether positive or negative - from other electoral processes taking place in Spain. And from there, I believe that when we reach 2027 - which is the commitment, because legislative terms last four years according to the Constitution, whether the Left is governing or the Right - Well, I will see exactly when the right moment is in Spain's interest. And Spain's interest has evidently also been the stability we have brought to the system throughout these years.

Anyway, I say this in all humility, but just the other day Mrs Meloni celebrated the fact that she has been at the helm of the Italian government for over three years. Well, that's all very well, but we've been doing this for over eight years. This is the longest-serving government in the history of democracy after that of Felipe González. Well, over the years I have seen many prime ministers from the UK, France, Italy and many other European countries step down from office.

Today, for example, following the elections in Saxony and the victory of the far right there, there is even talk of the Merz government remaining in power in Germany. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe this also demonstrates that the stability we have brought about is one of the reasons why, for example, our growth is currently four times the European average, or why we have seen growth and the creation of almost half a million new jobs a year since the pandemic. And these are social and economic achievements which, despite the challenges posed by the international situation and also the domestic difficulties we may face - for example, on the issue of housing - show that Spain is currently experiencing one of its finest periods. And if we compare ourselves with other major economies in our region, that is certainly indisputable, indisputable.

Jesús Cintora: Mr President, you said, When the time comes, I will see when to call the election. Can you guarantee that you will serve out the entire parliamentary term - meaning we will have an election in the summer of 2027 - and that you will be the candidate? Can you guarantee that, or will we have to wait and see when the time is right - leaving the door open for the possibility that, if there is no 'Super Sunday', the election might take place before the end of the parliamentary term?

Response: I believe that 2027 is an election year and, constitutionally, I have the discretion to decide when to hold the election; I believe that what matters to the public is that I will do so at the time that best serves the general interest of the Spanish people. I remember, you see, Jesús, that when Casado fell - precisely because he had exposed Mrs Ayuso's corruption - and Mr Feijóo took over, there was speculation that I would call a snap election. And I said in the General Courts that I was not going to take advantage of that situation because it was not in Spain's general interest to bring forward the elections because of a crisis within a party - in this case, the main opposition party. And I have applied that principle whenever I have had to make decisions regarding electoral processes. In May 2023, voters made it clear in the local and regional elections that they wanted governments led by the People's Party and VOX. On that very day, I understood the message and proposed holding early, technical elections a few months in advance to ask the public what they wanted for their country: whether they wanted a People's Party government with Vox or a progressive coalition government. I therefore believe that, on this matter, I have always applied - if I may say so - a basic principle of traditional politics, namely to respect constitutional provisions and always bring forward elections in the general interest rather than for partisan gain. Because, in the end, Jesus, Esther, you'll realise that if I act - even from the point of view of party politics, with those interests in mind - the parliamentary groups will say to me: 'You haven't thought about the rest of us.' And we, too, have the capacity to decide, because we will eventually need that support.

Jesús Cintora: But, Mr President, you are not guaranteeing that you will be the candidate. Felipe González is just as pleased about it; he said that if you ran, he wouldn't vote for the PSOE. You haven't explicitly confirmed that you will be the candidate just now in your now - will you be the candidate?

Response: I've said it before: I know that today people on the right and the far right are a bit annoyed because I've spoken out - and viewers will understand this - but a change of government is undoubtedly a positive thing in a democracy. There will be people who think, 'Well, after eight years of Sánchez and the progressive coalition government, perhaps a change might do the country some good.' Well, for a start, I believe that we are the ones driving this change, and that for some of these policies to bear fruit and be implemented in a much more decisive manner - for example, in the housing sector - we not only need governments that are aligned with this approach, with that policy of market intervention that isn't working, but we also need time. Having said that, I believe the key is to understand that, in the political equation, Vox no longer represents a change of government; it represents a serious risk, a threat of regression, as we are seeing in many other countries. These people are not here to build; they are here to dismantle, to weaken, to undermine and to fracture our sense of community. And this really is a serious matter, because we are not up against a People's Party that is challenging those policies. In fact, going back to the start of this interview and the discussion on the Democratic Memory Law, they are adopting those very arguments themselves, such as in Ceuta, with all that hyperbolic rhetoric about an "invasion," and even rhetoric fuelled by hatred and xenophobia. Therefore, unfortunately, the "brand" of hatred in Spain is no longer held by just one political party - namely VOX - but, sadly, Feijóo's People's Party is also beginning to adopt it.

Jesús Cintora: But, Mr President, are you going to stand as the Socialist Party's candidate in the forthcoming elections, or are you still considering it?

Response: Well, let me tell you - and my colleagues are very particular about this sort of thing... I want to, and I feel ready and determined to stand for election again and to continue the work of change and transformation that we are undertaking right up to 2030. But I have to go through the process of the primaries, and there…

Esther Palomera: Mr President, you know that there are no primaries when your party is in power.

Response: There are some, it's just that the requirements-say, the percentage of endorsements needed to run - are different. But, well, I must stress, it's just that otherwise I'll get told off at home, by my party, won't I?

Esther Palomera: It depends on your decision.

Response: We have to go through that participatory process - the primaries - but if my colleagues want me to run again, then I certainly will.

Esther Palomera: So what we are reading about 'Cuerpo', 'Puente' and all these names that are doing the rounds both within and outside the Socialist Party are simply fabrications.

Response: They are excellent ministers; he is an outstanding Vice-President of the Government. I believe what this shows is that there are, in fact, some very good, very capable people within the government and within the organisation, but anyway, I am, in principle, keen to do so and I believe I also have the support - both internally and externally - to secure another term for a progressive coalition government. I understand the political situation; I understand the historical context.

I do not think it is a coincidence that, following the crisis in Ceuta - and when I say 'following', I am not referring to the days that followed, but to the very hours in which that crisis unfolded - leading figures from that far-right international movement came forward to criticise the progressive coalition government. The fact is that, if we think about it, Spain is one of the few countries in the world - or in the developed world - to have a progressive coalition government. And it is clear that the far-right international movement also wants to bring down this government, and they are using Ceuta to spread hatred, fear and xenophobia.

And the right and the far right get a bit annoyed here when I point out - and the data supports this - I'm not the one providing it, it comes from the European Commission's European External Action Service - that networks linked to Russia and Israel played a role. While they may not have been the source, they were involved in the spread and amplification of hoaxes and disinformation regarding the Ceuta crisis. That is a proven fact - just as it is a proven fact that far-right think tanks from the United States, unfortunately, also participated.

Jesús Cintora: Precisely because there are so many people who - so to speak - dislike or hate you, or view you as a problem - and by "problem," I mean everyone from PSOE leaders like García-Page or Felipe González, who think you might be a liability for your own side, to those who single you out, ranging from people chanting insults at parties to those who believe that certain problems would vanish if you weren't around - are you aware of that? And what do you think is the reason for it?

Response: Well, first of all, regarding Felipe and Emiliano, it's just… I don't know, it's just normal, run-of-the-mill - this has been happening to me since 2014. In fact, I reckon the headline would be if they ever came out in support of an action taken by the Government of Spain - so I'd rule that out, because, besides, those are very minority, fringe positions within the organisation.

As for the second point, I believe there is a strategy which, incidentally, has now been exacerbated by social media and by the increased presence of the international far right, as well as by the fact that they have broken every code of institutional respect - right up to, well, the legal proceedings brought against David Sánchez, Begoña Gómez, my wife and my brother.

But dehumanisation has always been part of the strategy of the far right and the right. It was done to Felipe González, it was done to José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, and it is being done in my case too - though much more intensely now, due to the presence of social media and the spread of hateful, fear mongering hoaxes across those platforms.

But I think that if anything, it demonstrates precisely the lack of arguments and of a political programme that is genuinely appealing to the public on the part of these parties.

And so, I believe the answer - or rather, the strategy from our perspective - regarding how to respond to the rise of the far right or the shift of the traditional right toward the far right (a question Rufián actually put to me today in the General Courts) is to implement more progressive policies. And I believe it's through more progressive policies.

I pointed this out today in the context of the PISA report we have seen. The PISA report shows that in all developed countries - not just in Spain - there has been a very significant decline in reading comprehension and maths skills amongst our young people and children. This has a great deal to do with the use of digital devices - the irrational use of digital devices; with the increasingly widespread and intensive use of artificial intelligence by our young people and children; and with the consequent demand that the General Courts finally pass a bill currently going through the parliamentary process, namely the ban on access to social media for under-16s, where there is already more than enough scientific evidence to show that excessive use of these social media platforms and mobile devices actually hinders the cognitive development of our young people.

Incidentally, this issue of reading comprehension - into which we have channelled financial resources that we have transferred to the regional governments, which are responsible for this area - is not just a matter for our young people, but also for older people. Today I'm asking viewers how many of them, when they read an article, read it from start to finish.

This extends to public debate, and consequently, it affects the quality of our democracy. There are attempts to boil down complex debates - such as the situation in Ceuta - into a single tweet.

This poses a serious risk that clearly benefits the techno-oligarchs, who are making a fortune at the expense of the mental health of our young people and citizens in developed nations. And if there is one government that has stood up to these techno-oligarchs, without the support of the People's Party and VOX, it is the progressive coalition government.

Honestly, hearing Abascal - who cheers for tariffs, Elon Musk and Netanyahu's genocide - claim that I have a master other than the Spanish people strikes me as an insult to one's intelligence.

Esther Palomera: For my part, I have two final questions, Mr President. Would you say that your radical opposition to Donald Trump's policies has damaged Spain's standing in Europe and around the world? And one more: What lessons should Europe and Spain draw from the result of the German election in Saxony last Sunday?

Response: I believe that, first of all, it is evident that when Spain declared it would not allow its military bases to be used for a war we deemed not only unjust and unjustified but also outside the framework of international law, it prompted societies - and public opinion - in major European nations to demand that their governments follow the example set by the Government of Spain. Therefore, from that perspective, I believe quite the opposite; while it is true that there are more far-right or right-wing coalition governments than progressive ones, I believe we clearly succeeded in shifting the stance of those governments regarding public opinion. Thanks to our firm stance on this matter.

As for the second point, I think the interpretation is quite clear. The far right poses a real threat to democracy and, as such, cannot be a partner to any party that legitimately aspires - in this case, in Spain - to govern our country. Because, as I keep saying, coming back to the Law on Democratic Memory. To question the transparency and quality of a democratic system such as Spain's, as the far right does systematically and, incidentally, as the People's Party also does, albeit in a slightly more childish manner ... Let's think back, for example, to 2023 - I don't know if you remember that there was an AVE service from Valencia to Madrid which was cancelled, and at the time people blamed the Government of Spain. It must be that only People's Party voters were on that train, and no voters from other political groups. They do this in a very childish way, yet it also sows doubt about the quality of our democratic system. I think this is an extremely serious matter.

That is why, I repeat, I believe it is very important for the Supreme Court, from a legal point of view, to clarify this issue before the elections due to be held in 2027. And, of course, shame on those parties which, by lodging this sort of appeal, are conveying the impression that there are first- and second-class citizens in our country - particularly those who are relatives of people who were forced to leave Spain for political reasons during the Civil War or during the long years of dictatorship. I believe this shows that the right - unfortunately in our country, as I do not count the far right amongst them - still has a long way to go when it comes to behaving in a respectful manner and showing trust in democracy and the values enshrined in our Constitution.

Jesús Cintora: Mr. President, I would like to conclude this interview by mentioning Extremoduro, Robe Iniesta, and the song "La verdad de la puerta de atrás" - one of the tracks you have shared when recommending cultural activities for the weekend. Robe Iniesta, amongst other things, spoke of the need for more culture and less hatred. You have been heavily criticised for sharing these tastes and ideas. Do we, as Robe Iniesta would say, need to understand the world of culture better, share it, engage with it and hate less?

Response: Absolutely. I think - or rather, I believe - that it was on your channel today that one of the great philosophers, Marina, spoke of the need for politics to be seen as something useful, where it is not viewed as a problem but as a solution to those problems. There are political forces and vested interests that are clearly intent on allowing problems to fester rather than providing solutions. We have seen this in Catalonia, where, unfortunately, we are still talking about what happened in 2017, when we should be looking to the future. We are now seeing this in Ceuta as well, where there is a spurious interest on the part of certain parties in using Ceuta and its crisis as a means of undermining the Government of Spain, without offering a solution. I believe that, in the face of this, we must champion practical politics - politics that serves the state. And that is what the Government of Spain is doing.

Throughout every crisis, we have acted in the same way: with unity and institutional loyalty. And I think that is, ultimately, what is expected of a politician. Not the hyperbole we are currently mired in, nor the dishonesty and lack of respect for the truth - or for one's political opponents. This business of insults

every day in the General Courts… Claiming - as Abascal has all but said today - that I am forcing children in our school canteens to eat Moroccan food… But anyway, I'm bringing up this level of degradation in public debate in the context of your reflection.

I believe that championing culture also means championing citizens' independent judgment and autonomy - knowing what is true, what is false, and, above all, identifying where the solutions lie versus those who simply want to aggravate the problem to spread hatred, fear and xenophobia, as we are currently witnessing.

But I believe - and I must stress this - this is my belief and my conviction; that Spain is a country defined by solidarity; a country that fully understands that, given our location in Africa and our position on the front line of a continent lacking opportunities, we face a migration reality that requires us to work on the issue and cooperate with countries of origin and transit. And that is not at odds with having a firm resolve to defend issues that are red lines for us, such as national sovereignty and territorial integrity - in this case, that of Ceuta and Melilla. But culture, always, most certainly. Music, always. Reading, always. I'd say to young people - and those who aren't quite so young - that they should read a lot more. They should read a lot more.

Jesús Cintora: President of the Government of Spain, thank you for joining us on 'Mañaneros 360', and for appearing on public television - on TVE. Good afternoon.

Esther Palomera: Thank you, Mr President.

Response: My pleasure.

(Transcript edited by the State Secretariat for Communication)