"A democracy such as Spain cannot allow monuments to Franco"

The new President of the Government receives eldiario.es in his office at Moncloa Palace; the same one that Mariano Rajoy used until just a few weeks ago. There are more plants now, the cacti that Pedro Sánchez likes so much, although you can't see the main change. "Previously the Internet connection in the office of the President of the Government was very bad, the first thing he ordered changed was the Wifi", explains his personal office staff. Pedro Sánchez (Madrid, 1972) belongs to a generation that cannot conceive working without the Internet. He became General Secretary of the PSOE [Spanish Socialist Workers' Party] when to his left and to his right - Cayo Lara and Mariano Rajoy - all of the other leaders were much older than him. This situation has changed so much that now, just a few years later, he is the only one of the main national leaders who was born before Francisco Franco died.

When and how will Franco be removed from the Valley of the Fallen? Do you now have a date and the legal channel to do this?

We are just finishing the legal channel. We will shortly give the instruction which will be approved at the Council of Ministers. The philosophy is very straight-forward: a democracy such as Spain cannot allow monuments to France. It is clear that a great deal of time has gone by in exhuming the remains of Dictator Franco from the Valley of the Fallen. I understand the urgency of certain groups and of millions of progressive citizens who consider that this gaping wound needs closing once and for all. But the government wants to do things right. The political decision has been taken. We will comply with the mandate from the Lower House of Parliament, approved by the majority of the parliamentary groups in the house.

What will happen with the remains of Franco if the family remains opposed to exhuming them from the Valley of the Fallen? When will they be transferred?

That is one of the issues to be looked at when the decision is taken, but, at any event, I hope that the family of the dictator reconsiders its position.

Aside from transferring Franco's grave, what plans does the government have for the Valley of the Fallen?

The committee set up under the Historical Memory Act issued a report. We have proposed an amendment to the Historical Memory Act, precisely to guarantee public resources in the exhumation of families that still remain in ditches in many parts of our country. And a joint reflection will need to be made by this House, by the parliamentary groups, to see what use we can make of it, or what service the Valley of the Fallen can offer. I don't wish to speculate, I have my own opinion: it will be difficult to convert the Valley of the Fallen into a place for rapprochement or concord. But it will have to be the parliamentary groups that jointly decide what use to make of this centre.

Do you propose to remove the Duchy from Franco that the PP government renewed at its last Council of Ministers?

There are legal difficulties in doing this. But both the Duchy and the Francisco Franco Foundation, and all those elements that we have seen in recent days, such as the prominence of fascist symbols or demonstrations by certain groups reclaiming Franco's dictatorship in public spaces should lead us all to reflection. I believe that National Heritage cannot allow this type of attitude and pro-Franco, and consequently fascist, actions to be made in public spaces. Respecting the freedom of expression of everyone, which is guaranteed in a democracy such as ours, should also have limits in my opinion and the government will take all these aspects into consideration.

Do these limits allow the Francisco Franco Foundation to act as it does now?

We must reflect on whether it should be legal or illegal for a foundation to do what is did on 18 July, when it called for a new uprising, in a consolidated, European and advanced democracy such as we have in Spain

Will you take away the medals that inflate the retirement pension of the torturer Billy el Niño [Billy the Kid]?

Yes.

When?

This process is already under way, but we have only been in power for six weeks. The Government of Spain has taken the decision to end this situation as soon as possible.

A couple of weeks ago you spent more than two and a half hours at Moncloa Palace with Quim Torra. Do you still believe the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia is a racist?

As President of the Government, it is down to me to have a normal, cordial and institutional relationship with the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia. I think that if he revised some of those texts now he would think differently. The first responsibility of the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia and of the President of the Government of Spain is to normalise institutional relations. This normalisation is not the ultimate goal but the start of a process that will be long and in which we will have to table frank, direct dialogue, with no strings attached, to find a political solution to the crisis in Catalonia.

What would this political solution be for you?

We have it very clear that Catalan society voted for a Statute that no longer governs in Catalonia, because it was cut down to size as a result of the ruling handed down by the Constitutional Court. Hence, the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia lacks legitimacy and this must now be rectified.

Negotiating includes listening, not just being heard. I was satisfied at the meeting with the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia. I believe it is a good initiative, a good start, to activate the bilateral committees that haven't met since 2011.

Did you feel Quim Torra was prepared to listen?

I think he is aware of the complexity of the situation in Catalonia at this time. In the same way as I said "listening, not just being heard", the Government of Spain has listened to his demand, which I believe is reasonable, regarding a Catalan statute that society did not vote for. I also believe that the pro-independence bloc must listen, above all to the other parts of Catalan society that are not advocating self-determination and independence.

Do you think that the PP and Ciudadanos will be as loyal as you were with the government of Mariano Rajoy on this issue?

I hope so. It is clear that the proclamations and false demands they are making point in another direction. Both the PP and Ciudadanos have a way of understanding the unity of Spain which, in fact, only divides Spain. This whole crisis comes as a consequence of the PP's actions when it was in the opposition by appealing against the Statute of Autonomy before the Constitutional Court.

As regards Ciudadanos, I still maintain the question I asked Albert Rivera in the Lower House of Parliament. What is the point of voting for Ciudadanos in Catalonia? What has Ciudadanos done in Catalonia to develop a solution to the crisis there? They are always reproachful, whether the Government of Spain or whoever is in the Regional Parliament of Catalonia that is not like-minded.

Your colleagues in the PSC [Socialist Party of Catalonia] consider that remanding pro-independence prisoners in custody is excessive. Do you agree with them? Is this excessive?

As President of the Government I should not judge legal rulings. Court rulings should not be judged, but respected. They are respected when the court of a German lander court decides what it did regarding Mr Puigdemont, they are also respected when Pablo Llarena decides to withdraw the European Arrest Warrant and not request the extradition of Mr Puigdemont to Spain, and they are respected when the Supreme Court decides to suspend a series of regional MPs that are now being investigated and tried for the events that took place in Catalonia last year.

Sometime back, you said that the best thing would be for them to be tried in Spain.

Absolutely!

But the ruling by Judge Llarena made it impossible to try Mr Puigdemont here. Was that a mistake?

I always criticised the fact, when I was in the opposition, that there was no alternative or political response to a crisis that was political. And that the previous administration placed the judiciary in a position whereby its response had little or nothing to do with judicial affairs. Hence, each and every statement I make will always be to defend the justice system in Spain.

Some rulings I may like more than others, but the government neither makes nor unmakes the rulings handed down by the judiciary. I believe that Spain is a well-grounded democracy, a social and democratic State with the rule of law. When the pro-independence forces talk about political prisoners or those in exile, they are misrepresenting or distorting what a political prisoner or someone in exile has meant over the history of Spain, during the time of the dictatorship. We live in a social and democratic State with the rule of law and those same judges criticised by the pro-independence forces are those who ruled against the People's Party over corruption in the Gürtel case.

There is also respect for the rulings of the judiciary; what the Government of Spain must do is manage the political deviations from judicial processes in this case.

Do you believe that the State's legal counsel should call for them to be sentenced for sedition?

I believe that both the Public Prosecutor's Office and the State's legal counsel must observe legal principles to establish the State's position. I will respect the decisions they take.

Are you concerned the Mr Puigdemont has taken control of PDeCAT?

I trust that PDeCAT, rather than remaining trapped in the past, commits to resolving the problems that affect Catalonia and its people, whether pro-independence or not. We must all learn from our mistakes. There are expectations founded on a horizon of dialogue to start to exit the crisis and everyone must sign up to this to make it possible. That is what I expect from those who run the political forces that make up the Regional Parliament of Catalonia.

How do you view the election of Pablo Casado? Do you believe the PP has returned to the times of Mr Aznar?

The discourse of the right-wing, not only of the PP, has gone back to its most conservative roots. That is clear, and after this party congress, they will be competing for the monopoly over this space. Those are the positions against certain civil rights, such as euthanasia or abortion, as announced by the Chairman of the PP in the Lower House.

The closed circuit right-wing, the most ideological and unbalanced wing of the party, is making a mistake; it believes that the past was always better. But Spain changes. And the Spanish people want projects related to the present and which look to the future.

Hence, what I call for from the right-wing is thus not only that it comes out of its conservative self-absorption, but that it also shows it is capable of putting the interests of the country over this political bent. Their right-wing views should not prevent them from taking a moderate territorial position or pitching in to defend the economic goals and challenges Spain faces in the European Union. What I call for from them, in short, is responsibility.

For how long will Rosa María Mateo be the sole director of RTVE?

I hope that for the period set by the Lower House of Parliament. I think that the political and business stalemate at RTVE was unacceptable. The PP and Ciudadanos had employed the argument of a public tender as a form of political and parliamentary flattery to delay and maintain the status that benefitted the political right.

What we want is for public radio-television to belong to the people again, to return to the plurality and diversity of the Spanish public. And that is why we took a decision. We could have taken an easier decision, which was to do nothing, and allow this stalemate imposed by the PP and Ciudadanos for as long as they wanted. In other words, sine die.

We took a complex and difficult decision. I am grateful to all the parliamentary groups that backed us because I appreciate that this wasn't easy. But the democratic regeneration of this country means bringing to an end an unsustainable and untenable situation, not only for the workers themselves, but also for the very democratic quality of our country. We must remember that RTVE news programmes are under investigation by the European Parliament.

Will Rosa María Mateo have full independence to appoint the whole of the upper echelons of Televisión Española and of the news programmes? Has any agreement been reached to distribute seats on the board?

Absolutely not. There is absolutely no agreement to that end. I will strictly respect the work of Rosa María Mateo if she ends up with the majority support of the House. On many occasions it is not so much the legality but rather the people who head up institutions that result in their regeneration.

But hasn't the way in which the renewal of the upper echelons of RTVE was negotiated until her appointment been the first grave error by the new government?

I believe that the names that have been put forward - each and every one of them - were renowned names, professionals of renowned prestige both in the field of Spanish radio-television and in the private sector. The Lower House of Parliament has been suffering from a lack of agreement in relation to the renewal of the Board of Directors of RTVE for many years now. There are directors of RTVE who represent political parties that no longer exist. In June 2018, the mandate of the RTVE Board expired, and it is apparent that there is a clear intention on the part of the directors appointed by the People's Party to remain and for the corporation to suffer from political and business stalemate.

The government had two options: to do nothing and allow this vacuum in the management, this stalemate, or to take sides in the issue. It is clear that forging a consensus has seen some moments in which mistakes have been made. We now know our mistake, a joint responsibility, not of the government or Parliament alone, but of both bodies.

What would happen if Rosa María Mateo does not win the vote under the decree?

Well I hope she does.

In the event that she does not win this vote, would RTVE intervene?

What we are not going to allow is a stalemate of this enterprise, which is what most concerns me. This would be the same as allowing an institution as important as the General Council of the Judiciary or the Constitutional Court to have a presidential vacancy. Another reflection should also be made. I believe that there are laws made for other political times.

What do you mean?

Well, there are laws made for times in which there were two main parties and then you had the nationalist parties.

When seeking a consensus on voting?

Of course. There is a misalignment between a very fragmented parliamentary reality and the complicated demands of the parliamentary majorities. This is a reflection that will need to be made in the Lower House when the mechanisms for the selection and election to such important institutions as this take place.

Will universal justice be recovered by the Spanish courts and the reform made by the PP be overturned?

Yes. We are terminating the repeal of the cuts to universal justice made by the previous government. These cuts in universal justice left the State with its hands tied in the fight against drug trafficking, organised crime and international terrorism. It also created loopholes for crimes against humanity and genocide. And, in short, when you have other countries that are trying cases linked to the Franco regime that are not Spain, this is totally unacceptable to me. Or at least it is not acceptable for this government.

But to try cases under the Franco regime, the Amnesty Act needs to be repealed, which is the legal barrier that prevents some cases related to the Franco regime being tried.

That is precisely where we disagree with some of the parliamentary groups. We consider that the amendment to the Historical Memory Act proposed by the Socialist Parliamentary Group at the start of the year precisely resolves this issue.

You speak about those accused of crimes against humanity, does this mean that Spain should hand over, for example, the former minister, Martín Villa to Argentinean justice?

I cannot get involved...

Well, at least give us your opinion...

No, I repeat. The justice system has its channels and politics others. What I do believe is that there are institutions like the International Criminal Court in The Hague that need all States to be committed to reclaiming and rebuilding such a basic principle as universal justice.

Princess Corinna has stressed that the former King Juan Carlos de Borbón has accounts in Switzerland, front men in tax havens and that he asked for commissions for his involvement on winning the high-speed train contract to Mecca. All of the parties that backed your investiture are calling for an investigation committee to be set up in the Lower House. Will the PSOE back this?

I believe we initially gave the right response to this. The Lower House of Parliament organises itself in terms of setting up certain committees. One of these is the official secrets committee. It is clear that the origin of these statements and this leak seem to be fairly localised. Well, what we feel is that the Director of the CNI [National Intelligence Centre] should appear before this committee and that the parliamentary groups should listen to what he has to say. Aside from that, the parliamentary groups, including the Socialist Parliamentary Group, will take the decision as to how to proceed.

So you wouldn't rule out accepting this committee or even take further steps in terms of other summonses in the future?

We neither accept this nor rule it out. When we listen to the Director of the CNI we will take a decision.

And will the Treasury investigate these potential signs of tax fraud, these alleged indications in relation to the former king?

If there are grounds that give rise to this, then I have no doubts that this will happen. But we will have to see exactly what degree of truth there is in this kind of accusation.

What degree of truth do you think these accusations hold?

I believe that it is better to listen to the Director of the CNI regarding this issue.

When you were in the opposition, you asked Mariano Rajoy to publish the names of those who were granted a tax amnesty. Why have you changed your opinion now that this is in your hands?

Because certain facts are available to me that I didn't have before. I believe that it is important to look at the facts of the case. The Socialist Parliamentary Group lodged an appeal against the unconstitutional nature of the amnesty before the Constitutional Court and the ruling was quite clear. It considered the tax amnesty to be unlawful and reproached the previous government both legally and politically. And, in our opinion, the ruling also adopts a clear position by the court in terms of the retroactivity of the publication of these names, of those who benefitted under the tax amnesty.

Unfortunately, we cannot change a ruling that has already been handed down. But we can avoid any future tax amnesties. And that is what we are going to do. You also have my word that I do not know the names of those people who benefitted from this tax amnesty.

What purpose does a law serve that bans future tax amnesties when this law can be repealed by Parliament?

If future governments want to pass tax amnesties, then they will have to assume the political cost in Parliament and in terms of public opinion. They will have to explain in the Lower House that these tax amnesties will be permissible. We are obviously not going to do this and allow this to be permissible at law.

I cannot change the present and the future. I can change the present more than the future because, indeed, other governments may come and go and do just the opposite. But what I certainly can't do is change the past, and I regret that. I now have the facts to hand that I didn't have back then. There are very sound reports from the State's legal counsel that precisely state that it is impossible to question this retroactivity. But, at any event, it seems to me that this government's commitment in the fight against tax fraud and tax evasion is very firm.

Will you maintain the labour equality bill that you presented in opposition, which, for example, stated that companies were under an obligation to report on salaries by gender, and even enhance equality plans in SMEs?

Absolutely. We are working with Unidos Podemos both on the wage gap bill and on the labour equality bill that are in their passage through Parliament. What we want is for them to have the gender equality stamp. I don't care if this was proposed by Unidos Podemos or by the Socialist Parliamentary Group, what is important is that this law sees the light of day by the end of the year, by the last period of sessions. It is also important that the Lower House of Parliament approves the euthanasia bill in the next period of sessions.

Will you raise spending on defence to the 2% insisted on by Donald Trump?

That is not the commitment. Details which are important often get lost in the headlines. The legal agreement dates back to 2014 and what it says is that we must be moving towards defence spending of 2% of GDP by the year 2024. As a NATO partner and ally we will move towards this spending on defence but we also obviously question, and I said that to the President of the United States, whether the commitment to NATO is only in terms of what one financially contributes in defence spending.

I believe that the fact that Spain is committed to troops in Latvia, in the Baltic States, in Turkey with patriot missiles defending a population of more than 2 million people on the Syrian border, and that we are also going to head up the training of the Tunisian Armed Forces in the fight against terrorism shows the clear commitment by the Government of Spain to the security of everyone.

But will the Defence Budget be increased in the coming years?

Yes, it must be.

Where will the money come from?

Well that is what the Government of Spain and Parliament have to propose. What I hope is that we can reach an agreement. Firstly because it is clear that security also forms a part of our social well-being. Security to combat the threat of international terrorism, and particularly, of Jihadi terrorism. Secondly, because of the challenge posed by [Vladimir] Putin to destabilise certain countries in the European Union. And thirdly, everything related to what defence experts now call hybrid attack strategies, that is, the destabilisation of countries by using new technologies and the social media, require a greater commitment from all allied countries.

I also believe that the allied countries must be aware of what the position of the United States Administration is regarding what the contribution of the European Union to NATO amounts to. And we must also re-balance the interests of the allied countries.

Should Europe sanction Italy for its breach of international maritime law and human rights law by closing its ports to immigrants?

On a general basis, I feel that Europhobia is the main challenge we will face in the coming years. Of course, the attitude with which the Government of Spain approaches or interprets the migratory reality is diametrically opposed to that of the Italian Government. And that is all I want to say.

Will the government abolish spot returns?

The government is committed to that. And it is committed to the orderly management of migratory flows. Spain has received 18,000 human beings over the course of this year that have arrived on our coasts. We must provide a response to this reality and to orderly migratory flows. We have set up a committee once again that was abolished by the previous government: an inter-ministerial committee on migratory policy. We have once again activated the migratory sector conference between the Government of Spain and the regional governments.

The commitment by the Government of Spain to the tough reality of the Mediterranean, and also to the Strait of Gibraltar, is beyond all doubt. We respect human rights and the right to asylum by a large part of these migrants. But this is a reality that we must manage with a very high degree of responsibility and seriousness. In the same way as we must speed up all the paperwork for migrants that seek asylum, it is also true that we must control illegal immigration, which cannot be allowed and must be controlled.

Will you abolish the tax privileges of the Church? Will the Church pay Property Tax on its real estate assets?

What we are going to do is take things one step at a time. We cannot do everything in such a short period of time. You know what the position of the Socialist Party is but things take time.

Including the revision of the Concordat, which is a proposal made by the PSOE?

One step at a time.

Will you establish a lay protocol for State funerals?

I would like to.

Some of the most recent victims of gender-based violence had restraining orders in place. Is something failing that the government can resolve?

Unfortunately, you cannot guarantee 100% security for anyone. But I do believe we can invest more economic resources, raise awareness and, above all, train the law enforcement agencies, the police, the Guardia Civil, the judges and the prosecutors. The Government of Spain will do everything possible to rid the streets of Spain from 'manadas' [hunting packs].

When you presented the vote of no confidence, you announced that if you won, you would call elections "after recovering institutional and political normality". Now, you say that your intention is not to do this until the end of the legislature. Why this change of criterion?

I believe that we have less time than usual, but there are many things to be done. And I believe, moreover, that most people want the government to undertake a series of reforms, of transformations, of the restitution of rights and liberties, and to fight inequality, which I believe it is down to us to do.

The vote of no confidence means a change of era in Spanish politics. The goal of this government, and also of the parliamentary groups that backed this vote of no confidence, is to cultivate and consolidate this change of era in Spanish politics. We don't want to turn back. Consequently, what we must do is fill this goal of a change of era with content. Filling the goal with content means regeneration, bedding down economic growth, fighting inequality, rebuilding the Welfare State and recovering many of the liberties that were lost. These are things that may be merely facelifts for the right wing, but for many people they represent issues of democratic quality and of reclaiming their rights and liberties. And that is what the government is here for.

If you don't manage to push through the 2019 Budget, will you call elections, as you asked Mariano Rajoy to do?

What I hope is to be able to push them through. We have a more reasonable path of stability than what the previous government proposed and hence, we have greater spending capacity for the regional governments, for the local councils and for the Government of Spain. I hope to count on the support of the Lower House.

The establishment was merciless with you when the Federal Committee of the PSOE removed you after refusing to invest [Mariano] Rajoy.

Yes.

And how does this establishment treat you now? Have you seen much of a change?

With respect.

What do international leaders say to you when they find out you are the new President of the Government of Spain?

That Spain is back. This sensation that Spain once again counts in decision-making processes, when decisions are taken, in adopting clear positions on specific issues, whether on the EU Budget, the migratory crisis or the position of Europe in NATO. At least, that is how I have perceived it.

Have you spoken to Mariano Rajoy since you arrived at Moncloa Palace?

No, but I will.

Note. Interview published with the authorisation of "eldiario.es"

Non official translation