Interview with the President of the Government on the Informativos de Telecinco

Pedro Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, a very good evening. A very good evening to all. As you can see with us is the President of the Government, Pedro Sánchez.

Mr. Sánchez, what a state of affairs; after the elections in Andalusia, the situation in Catalonia... Given this situation, do you have any room for a change in your roadmap?

President of the Government: Well, rather than change, I'd reaffirm my commitment to the roadmap that the Government set out after the no-confidence motion, and that means to comply with our task. Our task is to present a Budget...

P. Piqueras: Are you going to present it?

President of the Government: And I can tell you now that at its January meeting, the Council of Ministers will approve the Draft Budget that it will present in January to the House.

P. Piqueras: So you're presenting the Budget to the House in January? And do you have any support for it? The support you need for it to be passed?

President of the Government: I hope to have the support, of course. Right now we have the support of Unidos Podemos. We hope to have the support of the Basque Nationalist Party, and we are offering our hand and building bridges with the rest of the parliamentary parties.

In any case, the Executive will do what it has to; it's another matter whether the Legislative rejects this Budget for reasons it considers appropriate. But they will have to explain why, because this is a Budget that will reconstruct the Welfare State and it is going to be a social Budget.

P. Piqueras: But obviously you aren't counting on Catalan nationalism now, are you?

President of the Government: They will have to explain to their citizens, they will have to explain why they don't want to restore the unemployment welfare benefit for the unemployed aged over 52, why they don't want to restore the contribution to Social Security of female workers, who in many cases are family members of those in long-term care; and they will have to explain why they aren't increasing the budget on science, education or long-term care.

P. Piqueras: In other words, the news is: the Budget will be presented in January. If it does not go through, are we heading for elections?

President of the Government: If it does not get through, obviously the Government of Spain will have to rethink many things. But anyway, what we will do is approve through Royal-Decree-Laws some matters that are in this Budget that we consider that it is important to approve to the benefit of the social majority in our country.

P. Piqueras: So I repeat the question: Could we be heading for an early election?

President of the Government: Look, I'm not going to speculate. And above all, as President of the Government, I don't deal with hypotheses about what has not taken place. What we want to do is pass this Budget. I believe that it will be a good Budget for Spanish society as a whole, which has been punished over the last 10 years by inequality, by precariousness. And, in that respect, what we are going to do over the months that remain until the end of the year is to raise the minimum wage to 900 euros.

At this Friday's meeting of the Council of Ministers, what we are going to do is to approve a Youth Employment Plan, mobilising funds over the next three years of 2 billion euros, to reduce the youth unemployment rate by 10 points over three years.

So we have a clear roadmap. A clear social agenda: we are also going to launch the Youth Employment Plan this Friday. And in January, the Council of Ministers will approve its proposed Budget that it will then submit to the House. We're going to do our job. The Legislative will have to decide whether or not to block this social proposal.

P. Piqueras: We're waiting to see what is happening on another front.
I would like you to clarify something with respect to inviolability of the King. Do you agree with that? Are you in favour of ending, of removing, the inviolability of the King? That would involve a constitutional reform.

President of the Government: Yes, I am. In fact, I always answer all the journalists' questions. And I have been asked this question. I consider that it is as important in the constitutional reform to set limits to the special treatment given in the prosecution of members of parliament, as it is to remove some matters that have nothing to do with a Constitution that serves a society such as the Spanish one of the 21st century, in the year 2018.

Look, we have a modern Head of State. We have a Head of State who has assimilated, and assumed in a very correct, very appropriate manner, the principles of gender equality, the fight against climate change, the defence of labour rights, social cohesion, territorial division, who is unjustly disqualified, in this case, by the position of the independence movement in Catalonia.

I talk about everything with the Head of State. Every week.

P. Piqueras: Have you talked with him about this?

President of the Government: Of course, and I've discussed this matter with him officially.

P. Piqueras: And what is his opinion?

President of the Government: I'm not going to, let's say, betray my duty of confidentiality with the Head of State. What I can guarantee to you is that when we've talked about constitutional reform in relation to freedom from prosecution, I've seen that what some political parties have said is, in fact, that we should talk about the inviolability of the King.

Well, what the viewers have to know is that, when we're talking about limiting special treatment in the process of prosecution, what the Government of Spain is proposing is one reform. When we're talking about the inviolability of the King, it's another kind of reform, which is more serious and needs a different kind of majority.

What the Government of Spain is proposing is to reform the Constitution to limit extent of the freedom from prosecution of members of parliament. That is something that was promised but not done, over these last two years of what was an absolute majority, if we can call it that, between the People's Party (Partido Popular) and Ciudadanos, with Rajoy as President of the Government. With 84 members of parliament, and a parliamentary minority, we're going to propose a reform that I believe will be good, also that will regenerate democratic life in our country.

P. Piqueras: Mr. President of the Government, let's talk now about Andalusia. Starting this Sunday, Andalusia has taken a turn to the right. No longer is it a Socialist region, as it has been until a short while ago. And there has also been a significant advance by Vox, a far-right party. What has happened that has led the Socialists to lose 14 seats in this regional Parliament?

President of the Government: There have probably been a number of reasons. I believe that citizens undoubtedly always respond to a question, when they are presented with elections. And it is true that there have been 400,000 Socialist voters who have not given us their vote. Many of them stayed at home, they didn't want to trust us.

Look, on 2 December the Socialist Party won the elections and didn't celebrate anything. I saw, for example, Mr. Casado, the head of the People's Party, celebrating; I imagine that it wasn't the result of the People's Party but rather that of Vox.

I am General Secretary of the Socialist Party, but above all I am President of the Government. As General Secretary of the Socialist Party, what I ask of my organisation in Andalusia is for the deliberative bodies to reflect on what the questions we have to deal with to recover the belief and confidence of these 400,000 voters who have not trusted us; and they haven't turned to other political parties; many of them have simply stayed at home.

But as President of the Government, Pedro, what concerns me, what concerns me is the stability and governability of Andalusia. And in this respect, I have to tell you that to me it seems the best option for Andalusia is the Social Party; so Susana Díaz has my support to try to be President of the Government of Andalusia as far as she is able to.

P. Piqueras: She has your support, Mr. President of the Government, but not sufficient seats to head the government of Andalusia, isn't that so? And also, she's given the impression, I'm sorry, Mr. President of the Government, but she's given me the impression that she was being questioned by her own party in recent days, isn't that true?

President of the Government: Look, the right-wing parties add up; we're not clear to what end. Today, they are even distributing the departments among themselves. And what I believe is that the People's Party and Ciudadanos will have to explain very clearly what it is that they are going to agree with Vox. Are they going to agree, for example, to repeal the law against gender violence in Andalusia? Are they going to agree, for example, something else that Vox is calling for, and that is to remove cover for abortions from the public health system?

So what I believe is that we are at a very important political time in Andalusia. And I believe that the political parties that proclaim themselves to be pro-European cannot support and base their government on a political party that is absolutely anti-European, as indeed Vox is.

P. Piqueras: In any event, it appears that there are plenty of offers of regional government departments being made to Vox as well. We've read something about it this afternoon, haven't we?

At any rate, why has a group like Vox, on the far right, won 12 seats starting from absolutely nothing - because it didn't have any seats? What importance in all this has the independence movement in Catalonia had, for example?

President of the Government: Look, rather than that, I'll give you two more reasons, before Catalonia. First, the low turnout in the Andalusian elections.

P. Piqueras: Well, but that you'll have to admit as an error, won't you?

President of the Government: Of course, I've already said that.

P. Piqueras: But also as a result of people getting tired of the kind of politics that's been repeated for tens of years, right?

President of the Government: There's no doubt about it, all these elements can largely explain what happened on 2 December. But I believe that the low turnout also explains the strong entry of Vox. Second, I believe that the surge in Vox has a great deal to do with the fragile leadership of the People's Party. In other words, right-wing voters have veered to the far right, because they have not found anything attractive in the People's Party. And third, talking of Catalonia, look, Austria, France, Germany don't have Catalonia, but they suffer the presence of the far right.

The big difference between the European right and the Spanish right is that the European right boasts about not negotiating with the far right; but the Spanish right, the People's Party and Ciudadanos, do so without blushing. And that's what they have to explain.

P. Piqueras: What's more, it appears that it will be necessary if there is to be a right-wing government in Andalusia.

President of the Government: What's more, they're wrong about one thing, and this is a thought that I'd like to share with the leaders of the People's Party and Ciudadanos: Vox will not moderate if it agrees on a coalition with them. What will happen is that the People's Party and Ciudadanos will become more radical. And so the room for moderation, which also exists in the centre-right in this country, will disappear as a result of the pull exercised by Vox on these two parties.

Look, it doesn't seem so important to me - though of course it is important - that Vox is represented in the parliament of Andalusia. What does appear important is how the extreme right tone of its political positions will inoculate - and it's already doing so - the discourse of the other two right-wing parties.

P. Piqueras: Susana Díaz has been dodging the issue by pointing to the independence movement, and did so here on Telecinco this morning, saying that the separatist factor has been key in this political change in Andalusia. Let's listen to her for a moment.

Susana Díaz: "Ciudadanos and Vox have gained votes wrapped in the Spanish flags on the balconies and benefiting from the fight against them, asking for a vote against the supporters of independence."

P. Piqueras: What do you think; do you agree with Susana Díaz that the independence process has been key in this? Wrapping themselves in the Spanish flag, as she said.

President of the Government: I repeat. The people always answer the question that has been set to them in elections. We are a very mature society, very democratic, with 40 years of the Constitution; 40 years of voting. People know perfectly well what it is that they vote for at each electoral process.

But I'm not going to wriggle out of the question on Catalonia. Look, I believe that the question is not so much the crisis in Catalonia, as the lack of solutions to the crisis in Catalonia.

As President of the Government, and previously as leader of the opposition, I have defended the Constitution and the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia. I have always done so. And that is something the supporters of independence know full well.

Now, what is it that I reproached Mariano Rajoy for when he was President of the Government? That he did not offer a political solution, that he did not engage in talks and bring the institutional relations between the Government in Spain and the Government of the Autonomous Region of Catalonia back to normal. That is what I am trying to do.

What is the great difference between yesterday and today? That Mariano Rajoy had a loyal opposition. I don't have a loyal opposition. What I am suffering from is a disloyal opposition which confuses engaging in a legitimate opposition to the Government with weakening the State.

P. Piqueras: Many analysts also mention the problem of migration as a reason for this fall in the Socialist vote. They talk about that as well, don't they? In other words, about how migration has not been properly managed.

President of the Government: Well, probably. On the issue of migration, if you look, for example, at where Vox has won, in El Ejido, and in some other cities in Andalusia with a significant presence of migration, then what is happening can be explained in part.

But just look, I don't relate this electoral behaviour very closely to a protest vote. I believe what some political leaders are doing when they insult Vox voters is a mistake. No, I believe that what we have to do is combat the policies and politicians of Vox with arguments. And to tell their voters that many of the problems they are suffering, such as inequality, exclusion, the lack of opportunities, a frightened middle class, with fear for the future, that the solution is not in the recipes of the past.

The solution lies in strengthening our European project, not weakening it. The solution lies in constructing an inclusive Spain, not one of social exclusion, as they are calling for. The solution lies in consolidating and making progress in rights and freedoms, and not precisely in returning to previous times. Questioning such major progress as abortion, the fight against gender violence or matters that have to do with the health coverage or the Welfare State we enjoy, I believe leads us to mobilise - all those of us who believe from a moderate and serene standpoint in a European Spain, in an inclusive Spain, in a Spain of rights and freedoms.

And that is the great mistake being made by the People's Party and Ciudadanos: to let them be dragged along by a tide that will take them precisely to radicalism.

P. Piqueras: I wanted to say that as well. I mean, if Spain is in danger, and Europe is in danger, from this movement towards totalitarianism that is taking place in France, in Germany, in Italy, in Hungary, and also in Spain now. In other words, now there are 10 seats in the Andalusian parliament that belong to Vox, isn't that right?

President of the Government: But look, I'll tell you something that I've shared with some conservative European politicians with respect to the far-right: when it enters the political arena in the parliament of any country, what it does is condition to a great extent the centre-right of that country.

There are political leaders with sufficient substance and with sufficient leadership to take a stance and say, I'm not going to get involved with those people. I'm not going to negotiate an agreement with them. That's what Merkel has done, for example. That's what the Prime Minister of the Netherlands has done, for example. But here, what we are seeing is the two right-wing parties saying without any hesitation, and without blushing at all, that they're going to reach an agreement with them. I believe that this is a lesson, I'm convinced that many Spanish people will take that into account. Because whoever embraces the arguments of radicals and extremists, at the end of the day the only thing they are doing is to make these extremist parties grow.

P. Piqueras: I'm going to ask you to listen to something. It's what Podemos and Vox have said, or have said about each other. What they describe is what we consider is a completely confrontational environment. I don't know whether you are concerned about that. Let's listen to the first:

"Flares and smoke bombs in the demonstration in Cadiz. Chants against fascism to challenge the inclusion of Vox in the Andalusian parliament. It's not only students who are taking to the streets of the main cities of Andalusia, for the second day in a row, rallied by the social media. They are gathering in the centre of Cordoba and are holding a meeting in Granada. They are supported by Podemos and Izquierda Unida, who are calling for peaceful demonstrations: 'We believe that this is how to engage in politics, not to forget where we came from.' Demonstrations with only a few isolated incidents, and some threatening chants. The leader of Vox complains by twitter: 'Communist hordes driven by Pablo Iglesias,' he says, 'call for the members of Vox to be dismembered into pieces', and holds Iglesias responsible for what occurs."

P. Piqueras: The impression is, Mr. President of the Government, that we are entering a dangerous dynamic, if this continues as it is.

President of the Government: No doubt about it. But the fact is that I believe it is a mistake. I believe that Spain, precisely, does not need different fronts: it needs coexistence; it needs to call on a great union of Spanish people to forge a common destiny for our country that is completely different from that drawn in these demonstrations and also in many slogans.

I am, of course, anti-fascist. I am a person who has nothing to do with Vox, but I'll tell you one thing: I believe that we have to mobilise, this moderate, serene, European Spain that defends a society in which it doesn't want to leave anyone behind; on the contrary, wants to incorporate everyone.

I am a President of the Government that wants the minimum wage in this country to rise to 900 euros. What we want is for the education of our children - and I take my children to a state-run school - to be the best, with great levels of investment; with the greatest levels of grants, above all, for families with fewest resources. And this is the Spain that I support, an inclusive Spain.

And even when speaking about the Catalan question, I have always said the same: It's not so much a question of how to play with the cards of independence. We have to propose as a country a project of moral and political regeneration at national level. And that is what this Government is in favour of. We want to talk about a humanist approach to the phenomenon of migration. We want to talk about how to finance a Welfare State that guarantees the education of our children, the health of our sick family members and the pensions of our elderly.

We want to appeal to the construction of a project, in Europe, that is common, strong, and that will allow us to face many of the challenges that we have in the Europe of the 21st century and the world of the 21st century. Of course, the cuts that are being proposed by the far right in Spain, as is being done by Le Pen in France is, precisely the opposite of a prosperous future for those people who are suffering most.

And the pity of all this is to see how there are political leaders in the People's Party and in Ciudadanos that without any beating about the bush or displaying any embarrassment are capable of giving up their principles in a matter of seconds, simply to take over the Regional Government of Andalusia.

P. Piqueras: I would like to ask you about some other matters, Mr. President of the Government. For example, today the Supreme Court has accepted the Franco family's appeal against the exhumation of the remains of the dictator. Does that represent a change of plans for you?

President of the Government: No, that was foreseeable. It's natural.

P. Piqueras: But will there be a delay with respect to when the exhumation was expected?

President of the Government: No. We have followed an administrative procedure. The Government of Spain is very clear that the exhumation of Franco, the dictator, will take place, and of course, also the reburial somewhere other than the Almudena Cathedral; and we believe that, of course, in this protective model that we have - because we live in a social and democratic State governed by the Rule of Law - the family has all the right in the world to appeal, as they are appealing each and every one of the steps of this administrative procedure.

But in 2019, as well as presenting this Budget, I believe that we are going to do something that is very important, not only for this country, but also for the world as a whole: launch an unambiguous message of commitment of this country and this society to democracy.

P. Piqueras: You know that the idea has taken root in part of Spanish society that this process of exhumation of the remains of Franco is what has also given a boost to the far right.

President of the Government: Well, anyone can say what they want. Look, I believe that the far right in Spain has always existed, just as it has existed in other parts of the world.

What's the problem? The problem is that now we have a very weak leadership of the People's Party, and that those people who have always taken up a position in ideas that are more of the far right, have found in Abascal a model that they do not find in Pablo Casado.

The great virtue that other People's Party leaders have had is to know how to clothe this reality, and even in some way to shift it to more moderate positions. That no longer occurs.

We are also experiencing a fragmentation of the centre-right space, which is the product of the weak leadership there is right now in the centre-right. That is why to me it is very significant that Mr. Casado should come out celebrating I don't know what results on 2 December - those of Vox? Because it wasn't those of the People's Party.

P. Piqueras: Mr. President of the Government, although you have already referred to some extent to what I'm going to ask you now, I can't resist doing so because today we've learned of a statement from FAES, the foundation of former President of the Government Aznar, that is being interpreted as putting pressure on Rivera to support a government with Vox and the People's Party.

Teresa Fernández Cuesta, tell us about it:

"No doubt, we can interpret it like that. Aznar did not speak at all during the campaign, but with this possibility of adding up PP, Ciudadanos and Vox he has done so now, though through a written document. First, to say that any agreement within these parties, within the Constitution, represents a great advantage over the agreement that has taken the President of the Government to Moncloa Palace. Second, to tell Rivera that he should enter this three-party pact, and that he should act consistently with the change. We cannot forget that in the last stage of Rajoy, the good feelings between Rivera and Aznar were sometimes more than evident."

P. Piqueras: I don't' know, Mr. President of the Government, if you have anything to add to that. You have already answered a similar question before, as I said.

President of the Government: What I would like is for Mr. Rivera to explain how he will explain to Macron, for example, whom he is trying to emulate, someone who clearly positions himself against Le Pen, that he is going to reach an agreement with the national branch of Le Pen in Spain.

P. Piqueras: Mr. President of the Government, you have planned a Council of Ministers meeting on 21st of this month in Barcelona. It is a Council of Ministers meeting that I would say is being boycotted from the start by the Regional Government of Catalonia; it has even been said that, well, there is support in some sense, or there will be no action or nothing said against, the protest demonstrations against this Council of Ministers meeting being held. What do you think about all this?

President of the Government: Well, the Government acts. We are doing our job; we're being true to our word. We said that we would hold a Council of Ministers meeting in Andalusia, and we did. We said that we would hold a Council of Ministers meeting in Barcelona, and we are going to do so on 21 December. And it will be a good Council of Ministers meeting for both the Catalan people and also for the Spanish people. We're going to announce some important matters related to social issues, and also related rights and freedoms.

So we are going to hold this Council of Ministers meeting, and I'm hoping the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia doesn't lose his composure.

Look, often when there is talk of the need for the State to recover ground in Catalonia, you have to remember a number of things: First, that the main person responsible and representative of the Catalan State is the President of the Region of Catalonia. He's not only President of the autonomous region of Catalonia, but also representative of the State in Catalonia.

So what I hope is that this security is guaranteed, and of course, the Council of Ministers meeting, which without doubt is important and historic, can be held normally.

It's true that the term historic is used often, but for a Government to hold a Council of Ministers meeting in Catalonia... it hasn't been held there for some decades.

P. Piqueras: However, the impression given is that the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia is wrapped up in himself, that he's not prepared to give you any support, in any way, including budget support, and that he has very clearly announced that his sole objective is independence and a break with Spain.

President of the Government: Yes, but one thing is to say...

P. Piqueras: Many people wonder, don't they, what are you waiting for?

President of the Government: Words are one thing, and deeds are something else; and I believe it's true that many things are said, but then no illegality is being committed by the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia, because the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia is very aware that the Government will act firmly if the Constitution or the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia is violated.

And look, I can say many things that I have done in these months as President of the Government, but I'll tell you one at least: When I was leader of the opposition, I supported the application of Article 155 when it was necessary. And for that reason, I say that the Government of the Regional Government of Catalonia knows perfectly well what the limits are to our discussion for finding a political solution.

I am very struck by what is happening in the United Kingdom. The news that reached us today is of the loss of the vote by Prime Minister May, of how the people who lost the Brexit referendum, in other words those who want to remain in the European Union, are now calling for a second referendum to try to win and remain in the European Union.

Or those who lost the referendum for independence in Scotland who are now asking for another referendum. In other words, we are talking about referendums that are divisive, but not temporarily, not in the short term. They divide people for a long time.

I believe that in Catalonia we should also become aware of what those in favour of independence are asking for. First, it does not have a social majority, it is a majority minority, but it does not have a social majority, and its political project goes against history, as we are seeing in the United Kingdom.

P. Piqueras: Well, look, I'd like you to look at an image of something that occurred to the former Socialist Prime Minister of France, now part of Ciudadanos, as candidate for Mayor of Barcelona. It happened in the street when he was trying to hold a political meeting:

"Manuel Valls keeps his cool and endures the booing and whistles as he waits for a silence that never comes. This is how he moves to the podium to explain his proposals for how to combat the insecurity in El Raval before a very varied public, those in favour of independence, prostitutes and neighbours, in general, great supporters of their own cause, that of sabotaging the event. (Valls: 'Those who denounce fascism are those who provoke it.'). And besieged by insults, the candidate as Mayor of Barcelona abandons El Raval in the metro.

An attempted boycott also at this meeting of the Catalan Socialists, on the 40th anniversary of the Constitution. Taking part were the Minister Meritxell Batet and Miquel Iceta, and the supporters of independence interrupted the act with shouts against the Constitution."

P. Piqueras: Well, that's the environment, what do you think about that, Mr. President of the Government?

President of the Government: Well, that we really have to appeal to peaceful coexistence. We have to call for coexistence based on the firm values of the Constitution, of which we are celebrating the 40th anniversary this year; the coexistence between citizens that may think in a different way, but that at the end of the day have to live together, and we have to get on with the daily lives of our families.

I'll tell you one thing, Rivera should listen a little more to Valls in relation to Vox.

P. Piqueras: Mr. President of the Government, we barely have a few seconds, forty seconds, of the time calculated for this interview. I would like to close by recalling something, the news that you offered as soon as this news programme began: You are going to present the Budget in January..

President of the Government: We're going to approve the Draft Budget at the Council of Ministers meeting in January, and we will present it to Parliament in January.

P. Piqueras: And when you present this Budget, will you have the necessary support to push it through? I'm repeating the questions I asked before, because...

President of the Government: We're going to work until then to gather the parliamentary support, but in any event, the Executive will have its job, and that is to propose the Budget, a social Budget that will fight against inequality, that will reconstruct the Welfare State; and if the Legislature blocks it and rejects it they will have to answer before the citizens who need these policies.

P. Piqueras: And finally, only for those people who tuned in to this interview late: If there is no Budget are we headed for early elections?

President of the Government: We're going to fight to try to ensure that we have a Budget.

P. Piqueras: Mr. President of the Government, thank you very much and goodnight. And thank you for coming here again, to Informativos Telecinco.

President of the Government: It's been a pleasure.

(Transcript edited by the State Secretariat for Communication)

Non official translation