Interview with President of the Government on Informativos Tele-5

Madrid

Pedro Piqueras: Mr Rajoy, Mr President of the Government, a very good evening to you.

President of the Government: A very good evening.

P.Piqueras: And welcome once more to Informativos Tele-5.

President of the Government: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

P. Piqueras: The President of the Government has just arrived in Madrid from Malaga, following the Spain-France Summit with President Hollande, where more than a dozen ministers took part, so we are particularly grateful for his presence at our studios.

We're going to talk about a wide range of topics: we'll talk about this summit, about populism, pensions, the retirement age and the Budget, and of course about Catalonia as well; but, Mr Rajoy, the news right now is that the President of Murcia is officially under investigation, what until recently was called accused (imputado) in the "Auditorio Case", a building project that took place when he was mayor of the town of Puerto Lumbreras; and he has been summoned to make a statement on 6 March. Are you going to ask him to resign from his post as President of Murcia?

President of the Government: No. I believe that we have to be cautious in these matters. I'll give you a very significant piece of information that is little known: this is the seventeenth complaint filed against the President of Murcia and the first sixteen were dropped. Let's see what happens with this one. And all the complaints have been made by the Socialist Party. So you can see that against this backdrop, I have to be cautious, and I have to hear what he says before the judge, once he has been summoned.

There is something in Spain that we should never forget, which is the presumption of innocence. It is one of the most important human rights that citizens have, and at times it is wiped out. But, as I say, there have been sixteen complaints filed so far, and all of them have been dropped. This is the seventeenth.

P. Piqueras: Do you believe that there is a hidden agenda here, with one complaint being filed after another.

President of the Government: Well, all of them are in the municipality where he was mayor, Puerto Lumbreras, and all of them were filed by the PSOE [Spanish Socialist Workers' Party] party of Puerto Lumbreras. I don't know if there is any agenda behind it or not. Everyone can draw their own conclusions. I'll just tell it as it is and that means I have to be extremely cautious in order not to be unfair and not sacrifice the presumption of innocence.

P. Piqueras: What is true is that Ciudadanos is already demanding measures immediately. Sonsoles Ónega, in the Lower House, tell us what's happening. (Sonsoles Ónega: They are demanding his resignation directly, immediate resignation, this time without qualifications, without too much room for argument. Rivera's second in command has said today that Pedro Antonio Sánchez, the President of Murcia, has to go. They want the People's Party (Partido Popular) to propose an alternative candidate; and if they don't, Ciudadanos will consider filing a censure motion with the Socialist Party and with Podemos. Juan Carlos Girauta: "The only possibility, and what we expect in the coming days, is for the People's Party to propose an alternative"). The President of Murcia, Pedro Antonio Sánchez, has also spoken. He said: "Make a statement to make things clear, and the sooner everything is made clear, the better. And that's what I'm going to do: to help with documents, with my statement." Either he resigns, or Ciudadanos drops its support. Could you lose Murcia?

President of the Government: I'm not going to get into arguments with anyone, but frankly when someone has had sixteen complaints against them, and they are all dropped and we are now on the seventeenth, I think that it's a good idea for all of us to take stock a little: the Socialist Party, Ciudadanos and myself. I repeat, I have to be cautious and respect the presumption of innocence, because it's one thing to fight against certain things or behaviour that is inadmissible, and another to sacrifice the presumption of innocence. Very often - and we've seen it happen recently - people are accused and then found innocent or not even tried, because the case is dropped.

So as we live in a democracy, let us all make an effort, let's examine our conscience a little and try to be fair to people sometimes. It's doesn't take so much effort.

P. Piqueras: The truth is that your party is facing another series of trials... We've talked here on other occasions with you about the "Gürtel case", and today a former minister of yours has made the news: José Manuel Soria. A judge has decided that the former Minister for Industry didn't pay for the hotel in which he was staying in Punta Cana, in the Dominican Republic. What news do you have about that?

President of the Government: None. I really didn't know. When was that published?

P. Piqueras: It was this morning.

President of the Government: I didn't know. I've been in Malaga all day and I didn't know.

P. Piqueras: He had filed claims against a couple of media outlets who had reported this situation and the judge agreed with them.

President of the Government: I can't comment. Soria is no longer part of the government, he has left politics and I have no idea at all about this information.

P. Piqueras: Let's change tack and move on to the "Nóos Case", which is a recent case we have all been watching closely over recent months. We saw the judgment handed down on Friday. What do you think about it?

President of the Government: I would like to make a comment on the Nóos Case that probably few people would make, because people have been focused on other matters that have also been resolved in the famous Nóos Case. I've noticed that in the Nóos Case there have been many people who have been found not guilty, but after many years when they have had a really bad time, because they were in all the media and have been criticised by everyone. And in the end, the great question is: what do we say to all those people who have been found not guilty and have been pilloried and for whom there have even been calls for many years of prison? That is the great question and that is the most important conclusion that we all have to think about.

In other words, we all have to make an effort to have a better country, to punish those who do what they shouldn't and to demand that the law is upheld; but we shouldn't forget that there is something that is more important, and that is the rights people have - the presumption of innocence. So in the Nóos Case, I am left with the following: What can we say, now, for example, to Mercedes Coghen, who was responsible for the Olympic Committee? There were calls, I seem to recall, for five years in prison for her and now the court decision is that she acted in accordance with the law, and that everything she did, she did correctly: What can we say now to Mercedes Coghen? Well, what I would like to take from the Nóos Case is to leave this out there so that everyone can take a good look at it and to say: are we doing things well or not?

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, I'm sure that many people are thinking the same thing, there's not the slightest doubt.

President of the Government: I hope so.

P. Piqueras: But we still don't know whether one of the main people involved, or charged, the Infanta's husband Iñaki Urdangarín, will go to prison. He has been sentenced to six years and three months, and everything suggests that he will be granted bail so that he can avoid prison. To many people that will not appear to be an exemplary sentence.

President of the Government: But we should respect the decisions of the courts. If we start to question everyone, then where does that leave us? What do you want? Do you want me to say that he courts of justice do not return exemplary sentences? Do you want the President of the Government to dedicate himself to criticising the judges because a judgment appears more exemplary or less exemplary, because one sentence appears to be better than another? That is a decision for the judges and that is democracy. Sometimes we like what the judges do; and other times, we don't; just as with some laws that are approved by Parliament which people like and others that they don't. But we have to respect the rules, the laws, the Constitution, or frankly we'll end up with a problem.

I don't know what will happen with Mr Urdangarín, because there the government doesn't have any decision-making capacity; but if I don't respect the decisions of the courts, who will respect the decision of the courts, Mr Piqueras?

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, let's move on to another matter and talk about the budget, among other things. Do you believe that we can be heading towards early elections, to more early elections, precisely because of the lack of a Budget?

President of the Government: No. I don't intend to hold early elections in Spain. There have been enough...

P. Piqueras: There are those who talk about November and the date of 17 November has even been suggested as a possibility.

President of the Government: I don't know. They will be better informed than I am, probably. But I'm telling you, I don't have any intention of calling elections. We already did enough strange things in 2016, ten months with a caretaker government, that causes a great deal of harm, and now we're going to try to govern. I have 137 Members of Parliament from the People's Party and I've reached an agreement with other political parties. I still don't have a majority. Some things we'll push through, others won't be so easy. We're going to give ground where we have to and that's where we all have a great deal of responsibility. I have it, because I'm President of the Government and the chairman of the party with most votes; but I can't govern alone, so the others also have a responsibility and what I say is: I don't want there to be early elections in Spain now. It would be tremendously irresponsible.

So let's all pull together to construct instead of dedicating ourselves to destruct; I, at any rate, want to construct.

P. Piqueras: What's your impression about what could happen?

President of the Government: It's difficult to say at this point in time.

P. Piqueras: Are the discussions with the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV), for example, at an advanced stage?

President of the Government: No. The discussions that have progressed most are with Ciudadanos, they haven't ended yet; we've also talked with the Canary Island Coalition, but they're not over either. I see the Socialist Party a little distant at present and...

P. Piqueras: Have they said no?

President of the Government: ...I've had some talks with the PNV. Yes, but the Socialist Party also has to consider that it has a responsibility.

In any event, I have to get 175 votes for the motion to reject the Budget outright not to prosper and then 176 votes to be able to approve the rulings of the Budget Committee, 176. And with PNV, Ciudadanos and the Canary Island Coalition, that's not enough.

P. Piqueras: Mr Rajoy, we're going to connect now with the Círculo de Bellas Artes in Madrid, where Pedro Sánchez has presented his political programme, with the aim of recovering his position as General Secretary of the PSOE. Iñaki Aguado, tell us broadly what the main lines of Pedro Sánchez's programme are. (Iñaki Aguado: Broadly speaking, Pedro Sánchez is now presenting his project for the Socialist Party and his project for the country. It is a programme in which he suggests an alliance with Podemos, but without merging with Podemos. What he wants is to lead a progressive front against a clear and common adversary, the People's Party and its conservatism. He's clear about that: the enemy to beat is the People's Party. He also has in mind the reform of the Constitution and to bring to Article 2 the multinational nature of Spain; in other words, that Spain should be a nation of nations, and that this should be included in the Constitution. Pedro Sánchez is continuing his official presentation now and that of his political programme, with an audience of hundreds, two former ministers and the whole group of Members of Parliament who said "no means no" to the President of the Government, Mariano Rajoy). I suppose you're not surprised about what he said with respect to the People's Party. You have never had good relations with Pedro Sánchez - or he with you.

President of the Government: I've never had bad relations with him, have I? The fact is that...

P. Piqueras: We all recall the "no means no".

President of the Government: But, look, that's politics. He's free to do what he considers right and proper. As you know, on 20 December, the 21st, the day after the elections, I said: as things stand, the most reasonable scenario is a three-way operation: the People's Party, the Socialist Party and Ciudadanos. That's something that is done in all countries in Europe. It's something that the Germans live with, as do the European institutions; and it's something that would have allowed us to govern and take decisions that would be valid for many years, a comfortable majority. But it wasn't to be, and the stumbling block is always: "Do you support Podemos"? "The idea is to get rid of the People's Party, get rid of so-and-so. You have to get Rajoy out."

That's no way to get anywhere, and that's no way to construct anything. I, at any rate, prefer to be positive. I'm not going to comment on what Mr Sánchez says, there's no point, and I'm not going to get involved in the internal workings of the Socialist Party. That would be stupid on my part. What's more, they haven't meddled in my internal workings and that's a rule that it's a good idea to stick to.

P. Piqueras: And aren't you going to tell us which of the men you will get on with better?

President of the Government: No, no. No way.

P. Piqueras: Or women?

President of the Government: No, no. I have absolute respect for the decisions taken by other parties, because I also like other parties to respect our internal decisions.

P. Piqueras: What is true is that you have got on much better with another Socialist than with Pedro Sánchez - I'm referring to Hollande, Mr Hollande, the President of the French Republic - at the summit held today in Malaga. I imagine that you talked about Donald Trump at the summit.

President of the Government: I have always got on well with Mr Hollande, very well I have to say. I've been with him for a number of years at the European Council, I believe that he has behaved well towards Spain, as I told him today at our press conference; he's a person who is not running for office now, and who I am very grateful to for how he has treated our country.

We've talked... Donald Trump's name, yes, came up in the talks. You know what my opinion is. What I want is to have good relations with the United States. We share values, we have common interests: security, foreign affairs, defence; and also trade relations. The United States is the biggest foreign investor in Spain. That is very important for the Spanish economy, and thus for the economy of Spanish people. So I want to have good relations and if there are things I don't agree with, I won't agree with them; but I'm not going to do anything different from what I do with all the heads of State and government that I know, who at this stage of proceedings are quite a few.

P. Piqueras: The US President has been in office for a month, and since then he has been congratulating the United Kingdom for the Brexit, for starting its exit from Europe, inviting other European States to follow along the same path. Isn't this a direct attack by Donald Trump against the future of Europe, that of the European Union, Europe as we know it today?

President of the Government: Well, of course I never liked Brexit, but I have to respect the will of the British people. And you can be totally and absolutely certain that Europe is in very good health. We number, or we are going to shortly number, twenty-seven countries, when Brexit runs its course; and look at what we are in Europe, because it is worth supporting it and talking well of it: we are the biggest economic power in the world, the biggest trading power, the only place in the world that has a system of public pensions, health and education for all, a great welfare system, and we are a place of freedom, democracy and human rights.

Now we are celebrating its 60th anniversary in Rome, on 25 March. Compare the sixty years before the Treaty of Rome to those after it: in the sixty years before, we had, among other things, two world wars; in the sixty years after, Europe has become the best region in the world, which everyone wants to enter and which no one wants to leave.

So I am a pro-European, I will defend the unity of Europe, I will defend greater integration and more profound unification in a region that is still by far the best in the world.

As for Mr Trump, he said what he said. I don't agree, and that's that.

P. Piqueras: The idea of Europe is a great idea and, it's true, it's a reality; but it is also true that there are tensions that are being provoked by external agents. For example, someone from the US Administration has said that the Euro only has a few months left, no more.

President of the Government: Everyone has the right to be wrong. I can assure you that it has very many more months of life. It's a currency that is in excellent health. There are uncertainties, but in the same way as there are everywhere. Look, there are uncertainties in the United States, aren't there? And there are uncertainties in Russia, there are uncertainties in China. There are uncertainties everywhere. Europe is very close to Syria, we have problems in Ukraine, we have immigration problems and we have the Brexit problems. But there is no life without problems, and far fewer when we talk about the governance of countries. But given all that, tell me one place that overall is better than Europe to live in?

P. Piqueras: Mr Hollande today has been tougher than you on this issue. He said literally, and you were there in Malaga, that it is "external powers that are threatening Europe, that want it to disappear." And many of course, Mr President of the Government, thought, are thinking, of Trump and also Vladimir Putin, who is financing far right groups in Europe, according to many reports.

President of the Government: I don't have any proof of this matter and at this stage of my life there's one mistake that I will never commit, which is to make accusations without proof. That is something that I will assuredly never do.

Europe is a great world power, let me tell you; the biggest economic and trading power, for example, and in culture, civilisation and history. There are other different powers, such as Russia, or the United States, even China, which has a population of 1.4 billion. Each of them has its good things and bad things, I believe that Europe has better things and I believe that we all have to make an effort to improve it.

The Rome Summit is important. Let's see if we are capable of sending a good message looking forward and talking well of Europe: because now you're talking about movements, yes of the extreme right, populist movements, etc. But that's like in Spain. In Spain, there are people who are determined to talk badly about our country. Look, those of us who like our country, those who believe that our country is good, that there are many positive things in it, let's say it out loud and not succumb to the temptation of not putting up a fight, not explaining things and not educating. And of course I am going to defend Europe, because I believe in it and because it is still the best region in the world.

P. Piqueras: With respect to Europe, and this is the last question on this point, many Spanish people, and many thousands of other European citizens, have joined demonstrations in the United Kingdom, precisely because they are afraid of what could happen with their own future once Brexit kicks in. Is there any response from the Spanish government? What is the Government of Spain going to do, specifically to guarantee their situation there, in the United Kingdom?

President of the Government: The Government of Spain will be constructive in all its relations with the United Kingdom. Look, obviously, the fact that you leave Europe means that you aren't going to receive privileges on top of it. That's clear, but we want there to be a fair relationship, we want things to be done reasonably, and my first priority is to guarantee the rights of the Spanish and European people who live in Great Britain, and also of the British people who live in Spain, of whom there are many more than Spanish people who live in the United Kingdom.

The other day saw the publication of a very curious report. Look, Spain is the ninth leading country in the European Union in terms of the number of citizens in Great Britain; there are more Poles - 900,000 - in the United Kingdom, and there are more Germans, more French and more Italians than Spanish people, but there are many British people here. So the most important thing always has to be people and their rights, and that must be the basic priority for negotiations.

P. Piqueras: These are the external issues, the challenges. The internal challenge in Spain is called Catalonia, of course. I'd like you to clarify if there are discreet talks being held, as reports would suggest, with the Regional Government of Catalonia to search for a solution with respect to what is termed, or what they call, how Catalonia "fits" into Spain.

President of the Government: No. And if there were, whether discreet or secret, I wouldn't talk about them, because they would no longer be discreet or secret.

My position is well-known: as long as I am President of the Government, of course national sovereignty will not be destroyed and what Spain is will be decided by all the Spanish people. And no President of the Government in his right mind would not support that position.

So having said that, there are four issues which for me are key about what I am prepared to negotiate and talk about now. First, everything that matters to people, which is regional finance, pensions, dependency, demographic problems. All of them are issues dealt with at the Conference of Regional Presidents we held some time ago with the autonomous regions and which Catalonia, its President, that of the Regional Government, did not want to attend. I told him that he should be there, because these are the real problems.

The second problem that has to be addressed is that we need institutions that represent everyone and not only some people. In other words, the Regional Government of Catalonia cannot only represent the separatists, because there are many people in Catalonia who are not separatists.

And the third issue that seems to me to be of capital importance is that we have to put an end to the division that these five years of the separatist process have generated in Catalan society. That does not bring anything more than irritation, resentment and exasperation. We have to put an end to this.

And the fourth issue: in the modern world an institution with a long pedigree and tradition as is the Regional Government of Catalonia can't depend on the vote of an assortment of extremists, which is the CUP [Popular Unity Candidature], who even remove presidents of the Regional Government of Catalonia. Really this seems deplorable. Let's see if people with common sense and a moderate approach, reasonable people, can get together and fight this fight, which I believe is important, is worth it and is fair.

P. Piqueras: If this referendum to which it appears that the separatist forces are committed takes place, what would the Spanish State do? What would the Government of Spain do? Would you apply Article 155 of the Constitution, for example, or part of it?

President of the Government: It's a good habit of mine not to get ahead of events. So far, no one has called a referendum and we are not aware that one will be held. We have to try and ensure that things are done reasonably.

Today it is impossible for a separation process to take place within the European Union. Catalonia would have to leave the Eurozone, it would have to leave the European Union, it would have to secede from international treaties. It means poverty by decree. In other words, it is the kind of craziness that you won't see in many years, and so I am asking for some sense and sanity, on the basis that the government is prepared to discuss, to talk, to see the things which we can build together; but of course, if someone wants to do away with national sovereignty, to be perfectly frank, and to be as clear as I can, don't count on me.

P. Piqueras: I'm going to read a very specific opinion, which is very short, as an introduction to something that we are going to see now and listen to: Artur Mas: "Some levels of the Spanish State are trying to present the situation in Catalonia as something that leads to violence, and this is being done to create a psychological framework that justifies the intervention of the State." CUP: "In the case of applying force, of the threat of militarising us..." García Abriol: "What some people want is for the Army to enter via the Diagonal Avenue to take over the institutions." What do you think of that? That we are in a situation of nervous statements?

President of the Government: That all this is foolish. Let's calm things down. This is foolish: talking about intervention, etc., etc. Let's be sensible and rely on sanity.

P. Piqueras: So let's talk about another matter: the retirement age. There's been another recommendation, from the Bank of Spain this time, for retirement to be over the age of 67.

President of the Government: We're dealing with the matter of pensions now. If we talk seriously, the two most important issues that Spain has looking forward, not tomorrow but in the future, and here we also have to talk about the future, are: to maintain the system of pensions and maintain it well, improve it if possible; and to maintain our health system, which is one of the best in the world. That needs reforms, but these reforms have to be carried out as a whole. That is not a decision that the government takes by majority, and no more; it has to be done together. We have a committee in place that analyses the system of pensions, called the Toledo Pact, in the Lower House of Parliament, and a number of experts have been called to give their opinion on this matter. The parties must try to reach an agreement on a decision that will allow us to say, with good reason: there will be no problem in twenty-five years; and then we can make other reforms.

But the goal is undoubtedly clear: it is to maintain this, which is the most important thing we have in Spain and not to get into fights about this matter, because that leads us absolutely nowhere.

P. Piqueras: Are there no tax increases planned for higher earners, precisely for the pensions, to finance them?

President of the Government: No, I don't have any plans to increase taxes in this term of office, except for some... There may be environmental taxes, but we'll see about that and in this case no decisions have been made. But undoubtedly there's no such decision on Personal Income Tax, Corporate Income Tax or Value Added Tax.

P. Piqueras: As it happens, your congress, the People's Party congress, took place a week ago now. There were not many changes; your party did not raise too many thorny problems at this congress. Are you satisfied with the result?

President of the Government: I'm happy. There were not many changes, because the changes had already been made mid-way through 2015, when we included new vice-secretaries and so introduced new blood into the party. It would be unfair for people who have been vice-secretaries for a year and a half, who gave their all at a time of enormous difficulty for the People's Party, because we had elections in 2015 and they were repeated in 2016. And 2016 was, as we all know, very difficult for everyone. Well, these people stepped up to the mark, sacrificed themselves, took it seriously and you have to acknowledge the work and effort of people like that. And I am very proud of the people who have accompanied me over these years which, believe me, have not been easy; but here we are now.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, thank you for being here once more on Informativos Tele-5, and a very good evening to you.

President of the Government: Thank you very much, Pedro. Thank you.