Interview with President of the Government on programme "Hoy por Hoy", on Cadena SER

Madrid

Pepa Bueno.- Acting President of the Government, Mariano Rajoy. A very good day to you.

President of the Government.- Good day, Pepa.

P. Bueno.- What is your first global assessment of this recorded unemployment figure with many minor details, as our colleague pointed out, that we have just seen published?

President of the Government.- It is always good news whenever the number of jobs rises and unemployment falls. This is the second-best month of April for National Insurance contributors since 2001, which is when records began, only bettered by last year's figures, which was the best year for unemployment ever. I believe that we are heading in the right direction and I think that, if we do things right, at the end of this term of office, at the end of 2019, there will be 2 million more people in work in Spain, which is the forecast we have submitted to the European Union, and there will be a total of 20 million Spaniards in work, which is what we need to see, both for those people themselves and for being able to maintain our key public services. Hence, we are heading in the right direction, but there is still a long way to go.

P. Bueno.- Mr Rajoy, I realise this is symbolic, but are you frustrated by having to go back to the ballot box with more than 4 million Spaniards registered at the Public Employment Offices, or according to the Labour Force Survey (Spanish acronym: EPA), almost 5 million?

President of the Government.- Yes. As your colleague mentioned, the figure stands at 4,011,000. What is important is that unemployment is now declining. When I came to power, this was increasing at 10% per annum whereas now it is falling at a rate of 7 to 8% per annum. But, I repeat, there is still a lot to do.

We have gone through a tremendous crisis. Unemployment rose for six straight years: in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. In 2014, things started to improve, 2015 was a good year and I hope that this year, 2016, and then in 2017, 2018 and 2019, if we do things right, we will also see an improvement and reach this figure of 20 million Spaniards in work.

P. Bueno.- To what do you attribute this slowdown in the creation of jobs, as reflected in April this year compared with April last year?

President of the Government.- Last year saw the best month of April since 2001. April last year included Easter Week whereas this year it fell in March. At any event, last year we were seeing employment growth at a year-on-year rate of 8% whereas now it stands at around 7.4-7.5%, which is still very good. Let's hope we can see growth at this rate over the next three years, I repeat, because after six very tough years we are now starting to recover, which we first saw in 2014, and then continuing in 2015. But we will see good economic growth: the first quarter saw growth of 0.8%, and the government forecast for this year stands at 2.7% while the European Commission has placed it at 2.6%. I believe that, if we maintain the rate in the first quarter, that our forecast of 2.7% will fall short and we will finally be closer to 3%. That would be a good rate of growth.

P. Bueno.- The unemployment figures published today show that the hotel and catering sector and auxiliary services are enjoying the fastest rates of growth. What would you say to those people who have a degree, two master's degrees and yet see that all the jobs being created in Spain are for personnel without such a level of qualifications?

President of the Government.- Jobs are being created for many people with different qualifications. Jobs in industry have also risen. And yet you mention the hotel and catering industry. Of course, the tourism sector accounts for 12% of national GDP and there are more than 2 million people working in that sector. There are many very highly qualified people working in the tourism sector, including those holding a master's degree, aren't there? The thing is that there are different professional categories within the tourism sector.

I believe that currently Spain is growing in all sectors. It is true that those people with a higher level of university qualification and master's degrees have greater difficulties, but we are undergoing a trend shift in terms of the professions. Just look, two things I heard recently which call for a certain reflection: first, that within 10 years, 50% of jobs that will be held by our young people do not exist today; second - I heard Juncker say this in a report drafted by the European Council; Juncker, President of the Commission - that hundreds of thousands of jobs remained vacant in Europe last year- just think about it, in Europe - because there were not enough people with the right qualifications, above all, in the information sector and new technologies.

I believe that we must continue working to adapt what is studied to what the job market demands. This is one of the main challenges in the short term, both in Spain and throughout Europe.

P. Bueno.- And what should we do with the humanities, philosophy, the fine arts, literature and philology, with the constituent elements of Western civilisation, and science too? Science too, but this is also important.

President of the Government.- Well that is very important. I studied arts; back in my time it was the infamous High School Diploma in Arts. I studied Latin and Greek, for example, and I studied philosophy, and these are subjects that provide you with an excellent background. Training should not solely and exclusively be technical knowledge that gives you the chance to work and live well. People do not become who they are simply based on knowledge, which is very important; they also need fortitude when taking tough decisions in life, this means knowing when to take action, when to remain passive, when to stand up for yourself, when you must take a step forward… In other words, all of the emotional characteristics of a person are as important as the area of knowledge.

P. Bueno.- Mr Rajoy, but you also need food on your table and, if it is the market that dictates what we must study, then the subjects of today no longer lead to a job.

President of the Government.- Yes they can. There are many people who hold a degree in one of the subjects you have mentioned who then work in various different activities. For example, many of them are in the world of journalism. Many people who work in the world of journalism have not studied a degree in journalism, but rather have studied such varied degrees as philosophy, geography, history or art. There are many people who work in museums, or archaeological projects, etc. who hold an art degree.

P. Bueno.- But the media sector is a sector that has shed many jobs. Like many others, unfortunately, isn't that true?

President of the Government.- Professions obviously undergo change. A few years ago there were virtually no IT workers. Professions change which is why we must adapt in life. It is very important for education systems to always closely follow what is happening. The figure I have given you of hundreds of thousands of jobs is truly incredible.

One of the things we must do in the field of education - this is contained in our election manifesto - is the famous 'digital backpack'. We are going to try to ensure that all those instruments that help young people become better acquainted with new technologies, which is key, will be free of charge. This is an absolute priority at present, whereas this was practically non-existent 15 to 20 years ago. In other words, it is also very important to adapt to the world.

P. Bueno.- But is that compatible with making cuts in education, as the regional governments are being forced to do because of a lack of funding and due to unattainable deficit targets?

President of the Government.- In recent days I have reviewed spending trends in Spain. Since 2007, which was the year to post the highest revenue, almost all headings, including in absolute terms, have been reduced, except, just look, social protection, where you have pensions, which have risen considerably, the heading to rise the most; in second place behind that is healthcare, and then education. While all the rest have fallen.

The majority of the budgets, both of the regional governments and of Central Government, are given over to social protection, and logically, the more we can spend on education, because that is our future, is undoubtedly significant, but there are some headings, such as grants which are at their highest levels ever, aren't they? What we must do, in light of the resources available, is find a way to prioritise. That is key in life.

P. Bueno.- Grants are lower now. You know that there is a major controversy there that so many people talk to us about today, who cannot guarantee the university studies of their children, because they have lost their purchasing power, grants are lower now, taxes have risen and this is a reality that I imagine you are not aware of, a reality that many Spaniards who are listening to us now are facing.

President of the Government.- Yes, indeed there are… Clearly we are not a country that doesn't have needs, just like any other country, but, at any event, we are one of the most important countries in the world. And on the issue of education we have a very reasonable education system, we have good universities and we have a system of grants that, as I said, is at its highest level ever. I would like to have a lot more things, but it is clear that, although we are slowly improving, we are not yet in the global top ten, are we?

P. Bueno.- Yesterday, the European Commission gave a better forecast for employment in Spain for this year and next year, but, as regards the deficit, it said that we will meet the target neither this year nor next year, just as we have not met any of the targets for each of the four years under your mandate at Moncloa Palace, Mr Rajoy. That was one of the goals we heard about in the election manifesto of the People's Party back in 2011, and although it would seem like a century has passed, it has only been four and a bit years, and yet you have not been capable of meeting the deficit target in any of these years.

President of the Government.- No, I don't agree. When we came to power, we had a deficit of 9.3% which now stands at 5%; in other words, this has fallen by 4.3% in four years, which isn't bad if you take into account that in the first two years, in 2012 and 2013, we were in an economic recession and hence revenue was lower and it was more difficult to meet the deficit target. Hence, the path we are on is the right one because it isn't bad to have fallen from 9.3% to 5%, and this year the target is for it to fall to 3.6%.

But what is important and this is truly important… In other words, the deficit is an instrument which must be controlled in order to achieve economic growth and job creation. What is important is that Spain is growing, and it is growing much faster than the major countries in the European Union - Spain will grow by 2.7%, Germany by 1.5%, France by 1.1%, Italy by 1% - that is what is important - and in terms of employment we are the European Union country that is creating the most jobs: the latest figures from the Labour Force Survey show that 575,000 jobs were created last year, in 2015, which is a good level of job creation.

Hence, the goal is to continue reducing the deficit while maintaining economic growth and job creation. And I believe that this is being achieved in a reasonable fashion. Of course, the European Commission would like us to reduce the deficit further, and it is right. I want to reduce the deficit, but I also want to see economic growth and job creation, among other things, because employment, apart from being good for workers and for financing our services, also helps correct the deficit. Hence, I believe that the Spanish economy is on a reasonable path.

P. Bueno.- Have you explained that to Merkel? Is that good for Spain, for Greece and for all countries, or not? Because the battle in recent years has been that the deficit target was strangling the growth of the economy, which has not been acknowledged by anyone, at least from your party, to date.

President of the Government.- No, excuse me, the first one to acknowledge that was me. When I came to power at the end of 2011, I discovered that we had a deficit target, set by the European Commission, for 2012 of 4.4%. Of course, we had a deficit of 9.3% and I said to the Commission, listen, can you explain to me how I can reduce this from 9.3% to 4.4%. And the Commission gave me a new target of 6.8%, which was what we achieved that year.

P. Bueno.- But not meeting this target, which is one of the targets you have tried to reach… You have not met the target a single year with Brussels. Will you exonerate the future government from meeting this target, whichever it may be?

President of the Government.- No, it is not that I haven't met…

P. Bueno.- The target set by the Commission, which has been one of the goals to achieve in these years of austerity.

President of the Government.- Yes, but I can assure you that we are the European Union country that has most reduced its deficit over these last four years. Reducing the deficit is easy, it simply means making cuts, but it is foolish to make cuts and full stop. The key is to reduce the deficit while achieving economic growth and job creation. Let me tell you that I am very satisfied with this, with what we have achieved, although there is still a lot of work to do on reducing the deficit, but personally, I am more interested in reaching this figure of 20 million people in work than in reducing the deficit, although I know that I need to get it below 3%, which will be achieved by 2017, instead of achieving this in 2016. So there will be a delay of one year.

P. Bueno.- Can you confirm for us, Mr Rajoy, than the deficit will stand below 3% in 2017?

President of the Government.- Yes.

P. Bueno.-I say this because each year you have said that we will meet the target and then we never do.

President of the Government.- I can tell you that 2.9% is the target. We have set the target for this year at 3.6% and at 2.9% for next year.

P. Bueno.- In other words, do you believe that the Commission is right on the issue of unemployment but wrong in its forecasts made yesterday on the deficit?

President of the Government.- No, the question is that it is very difficult to square the circle. If we had a had a deficit of 2.8%, then perhaps growth last year would have stood at 3.2%, rather than 2.5%. Of course, as you will appreciate, I am very pleased that last year was the best year ever for job creation, although I know that we need to see several more years like last year.

P. Bueno.- You told us last year that you reduced Personal Income Tax because you were able to do so, and yet, in the end, the public debt has risen and we have not met the deficit target. If you win the elections again, will you put the taxes back up like you did back in 2012?

President of the Government.- No. Just look, I raised taxes back in 2011. On 30 December, because Spain was bankrupt and on the verge of a bailout. I had no alternative. And in 2015, what I did was lower taxes on two straight occasions and put back 7 billion euros, or 0.7% of the deficit, into the pockets of the taxpayers. We would have practically met our deficit target if we had not lowered taxes, although leaving 0.7% of the deficit in the pockets of the taxpayers also meant that consumption has increased, and hence, indirect taxation was collected.

So, I believe that we did the right thing in lowering taxes. We were also criticised by some people. We lowered this for all the Spanish people, we also lowered Corporate Income Tax, which I believe is positive, and I have no intention whatsoever of raising taxes.

P. Bueno.- And you won't raise them if you win the elections again?

President of the Government.- No. I will lower them as soon as I can. I lowered them twice in 2015 and, when I can, I will lower them again.

P. Bueno.- Despite the public debt rising and that we continue not to meet the deficit targets?

President of the Government.- We are going to gradually reduce the deficit. We have already reduced it, this has happened every year: from 9% to 5%. We should probably be at 4% now rather than 5%, great, an additional point, but, I repeat, in exchange we have created 575,000 jobs, which is the positive figure. The aim of people in life is to create jobs not to reduce the public deficit. The thing is that it is also good to have a low public deficit. And, in all modesty, I believe that we have managed to go some way towards reconciling everything, which is not easy.

P. Bueno.- The People's Party and the PSOE veto any possibility of parliamentary agreements with the pro-independence Catalan parties; the PSOE vetoes the PP over its conduct in relation to corruption and its management of the crisis; the PP and Ciudadanos veto any possibility of an agreement with Podemos due to its ideological proposals; Podemos vetoes any form of pact with Ciudadanos and with you. Is this normal democratic conduct and, in the event of a tie, will this form of conduct need to be put to one side and will you try to negotiate?

President of the Government.- Over these last four months in Spain, which have ended up, unfortunately, with new elections being called, I made a proposal which seemed like the most reasonable option to me, to form a great coalition: the People's Party and the Socialist Party. That is what exists in Germany, in Austria and in many other countries and that would have meant a political change because, after 40 years of democracy, the true change would have been for the PP and the PSOE to govern together because that is what the numbers told us. And that is what happened here.

That was not possible. We will now see what happens with these elections, but that was the reasonable option. Of course, I am not going to ally my party with Podemos, everyone knows that, nor am I going to ally my party with Esquerra Republicana; but I am prepared to ally my party with a series of parties that could form a moderate government and tackle some of the major and important issues that together we are facing in Spain.

P. Bueno.- Is your lack of understanding or of harmony with Pedro Sánchez and with Albert Rivera a generational issue or do you believe it is something more than that?

President of the Government.- I do not have a lack of understanding with either of them, I can tell you that in all honesty. Something has happened with Pedro Sánchez, which after the years that I have been in politics I find surprising, which is that he doesn't want to speak with me. That might sound a little strange, but that's how things stand.

P. Bueno.- And with Albert Rivera, Mr Rajoy? Because Albert Rivera is maintaining Cristina Cifuentes' position in the Region of Madrid, but he doesn't want you in Moncloa Palace, he has expressly said that.

President of the Government.- Cristina Cifuentes won the elections. Of course, this is the small problem. She has won the elections whereas I think Albert Rivera had the fourth largest political force in these elections.

P. Bueno.- Yes, but without his votes it would not be possible to govern.

President of the Government.- Yes, of course, he could have given his votes to Podemos, as he has done in other places, but that isn't the most reasonable thing to do.

I am not going to get into an argument over what he wants or does not want. I believe that the people who elect the President of the Government, albeit not technically, but those who really elect him, are the Spanish people as a whole, and they are the ones that must take this decision.

P. Bueno.- Have you thought at any time over these last four months of standing aside to allow your party to continue in Moncloa Palace?

President of the Government.- No, because the circumstances did not dictate this. In Spain, we must get used - this seems like a quite serious issue to me - to thinking that no member of any party is the right person to elect the leader of another party. I don't say to Mr Rivera that he should stand aside, nor do I say that to Mr Sánchez. You cannot say that to someone who has 40 seats when the other one has 123 seats. Why should one with 123 seats leave and the one with 40 seats stay? That doesn't make…

P. Bueno.- Have you never thought, for the good of Spain and of your own party, about standing to one side?

President of the Government.- Not at all. I don't think that it would be good for Spain or for my party for me, my party's candidate for the elections, to leave because that is what Mr Rivera or anyone else wants. It would be a different matter if those from my party or the people of Spain wanted that.

P. Bueno.- Do you see your presence as irreplaceable?

President of the Government.- No, no-one is irreplaceable in any walk of life. I am saying that I was my party's candidate in the elections, because that is what my party wanted. We won the elections, the People's Party, and I headed up the list. So, what I believe is important is the will of the Spanish people and that of my own party. That seems more important than what Mr Sánchez wants, who doesn't want me, or anyone else from my party, or from Mr Rivera's. That seems like a discussion that is not right or proper in an advanced democratic system.

P. Bueno.- Will your political career end in these elections on 26 June if you don't manage to form a government?

President of the Government.- We can't know that, Pepa. Your guess is as good as mine!

P. Bueno.- And what is your intention?

President of the Government.- It is my intention, as long as I feel up to it, am keen and fresh for the task, to continue.

P. Bueno.- Even if you are the Leader of the Opposition?

President of the Government.- Let's wait and see. That is, let's not get ahead of the game… I have been the Leader of the Opposition, I have been a government minister, the Vice-President of the Government and the President of the Government, and I believe, in all honesty, that I feel up for the job. I believe that it has fallen to me to head up a government under extremely difficult circumstances. Just look, a few years ago, circumstances could have led us to be talking here today about when we were bankrupt, when we were bailed out or when we were under intervention, yet now we are talking about whether we should have a deficit of 4 or 5%. We have made some progress, haven't we?

P. Bueno.- Aren't you tempted to hold primaries and put your leadership down to the vote of your party members?

President of the Government.- Each party has its own way of organising itself. In the primaries of the other parties, the same leaders always come out. We have a procedure which is to organise a party congress, and whoever is the party leader stands as the candidate to the Presidency of the Government.

P. Bueno.- Cristina Cifuentes and Javier Maroto, who were here last week, haven't said this expressly in relation to you but they are firm supporters of holding primaries in the People's Party. Are you in favour of this, or no?

President of the Government.- I believe that this is something which, when the next party congress is held, can be debated, as it has been debated on other occasions. This would not be the first time that it is debated. The PSOE held primaries years ago and then stopped doing it. You will remember those primaries with Borrell and Almunia, and that ended up in a complete free for all. Many people…

P. Bueno.- But there will be many members of the PP that are waiting for this response. If you remain at the head of the party, will there be primaries some day or not?

President of the Government.- I will listen closely to the party, because this is not a decision taken by just one person, but rather by all the party members. What I would like to say is that the People's Party has certain channels for its internal government that are absolutely democratic, somewhat more than other parties have, and I don't understand how a referendum can be held where thousands upon thousands of people vote, because who controls this? That is something that I can't see clearly. We have a system of delegates that works well, under that system we have come this far but, like everything in life, this can be developed and modified, but first it must be debated.

P. Bueno.- My intuition tells me that you are committed to continuity. Would you like that?

President of the Government.- No, I am not committed to anything. I am committed to the party debating all these things, and others as well, as is clear, at the next party congress.

P. Bueno.- When?

President of the Government.- After this period concludes

P. Bueno.- And as regards electoral debates, will there be a four-party debate with Rajoy, with the four leaders of the most voted-for parties?

President of the Government.- We haven't yet taken a decision on this issue. I have taken part in many debates. I don't think anyone has taken part in more debates, partly because I have stood on so many occasions. There were two debates held between Felipe González and José María Aznar, and I took part in two debates with José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, one debate with Rubalcaba and one with Sánchez, with just the two of us. I have no problem in taking part in debates. Just look at the number of debates I have taken part in during my life; but what I would like to see is something reasonable.

P. Bueno.- In other words, will there be a debate with the four of you at which Rajoy will attend rather than sending Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría? Would you mind that?

President of the Government.- No, I have not said that there will be a debate with the four of us, or that one person or another will attend. The only thing I have said , and this is true, is that we are yet to take any decision on this issue.

P. Bueno.- Oh, come on, you must have formed some opinion, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government.- In an election campaign, and believe me when I say this, I believe that the most sensible way to operate is to be under the instruction of what the campaign team tells me, in order not to lead to confusion, because the more eyes looking at this, the better. Hence, at this time, and I am very sorry about this, I have no criteria formed on this matter.

P. Bueno.- Do you fancy another face-off with Pedro Sánchez?

President of the Government.- No-one actually fancies debates very much. A debate is a great responsibility; you must prepare for it; you must respect those who are watching television or listening to the radio; this requires a great deal of preparation and a major effort. This is not something easy, but it is clear that in a democracy it is good to hold debates and it is good to respond to questions from the media. These are the rules of the game but, if you are asking me whether this arouses great enthusiasm in me… I have held many debates and I suppose that there will also be debates in this campaign, but I don't know of what nature. It is not a question of whether I fancy taking part or not, it is a question of upholding certain reasonable democratic norms.

P. Bueno.- And that is all?

President of the Government.- Yes, that is what debates are. That is what debates are for. In some places a lot of debates are held, this also depends on tradition. In the United States, I have seen debates with 10 participants and even 11 in Republican primaries, and even in primaries of the Democrats, at least at the start, whereas there are other countries that only hold one debate. I believe that our norms are reasonable on this issue.

P. Bueno.- This is your fifth time as an aspirant to Moncloa Palace. How many times is reasonable for someone to aspire to the same position in politics?

President of the Government.- However many times people want. I always like… I am very clear about what democracy means. Democracy means many things. In addition to respect for rights, liberties, guarantees, etc., it is very important to respect the will of the people. I stood in the elections in 2011 and we had good results; in 2015 we had worse results, because these four years have seen a great deal of wear-and-tear; but, despite that, the Spanish people placed their trust, in the main, in us because that is what they wanted. I am grateful for that and I will work to earn the trust of the Spanish people. That is my obligation and, moreover, I feel keen and enthusiastic. I believe I can still do things.

P. Bueno.- The thing is that there are, for example, systems, you have mentioned the American system, where for the health of democracy, they feel that two terms of office is sufficient. Your party has had advocates of this hypothesis, such as Aznar. Don't you agree with this?

President of the Government.- Under the American system, and this has always been the case, you can only stand to be re-elected once, whereas there are other systems, indeed on the American continent, but further south, where you can only stand for four years, although four years later, you can come back and stand again. For example, in Chile, Ms Bachelet was there for four years, but she couldn't stand for the next term, and then she stood again and won again. However, that is not the tradition in Europe. In Europe, there are no limits on the number of terms of office under any legislation or in any jurisdiction that I can think of, if memory serves! This is obviously not the case in Germany, or in the United Kingdom, although Mr Cameron has said that he will not stand again, but Mr Blair did and then left halfway through his term of office. This does not exist in Italy, or in other countries.

This is another issue that can be discussed. It is clear that one cannot go on forever in any position, but these are things that can be discussed calmly and it is good to agree on this between the main parties.

P. Bueno.- Today, "El Confidencial" has denounced the fact the commissioner and former minister Miguel Arias Cañete did not abstain from voting at the Council of Ministers meeting that approved the tax amnesty which his wife allegedly took advantage of. Do you believe he should resign as commissioner?

President of the Government.- In reality, I don't have all the information on taxpayers, which I should say is fortunate; fortunately I don't know the details of our taxpayers. So, discussing whether his wife did this or that on the issue of the amnesty… I truly don't know all the details of our taxpayers, what I have tried to do is concern myself with fighting tax fraud. We have signed, like never before, a great many treaties with other countries, some of which are tax havens, to fight this.

Over these last four years, and this is a figure that is very important, the State Tax Agency has collected 50 billion euros. Just look at that figure, 50 billion euros, 15 billion alone in the last year alone, in 2015, in the fight against fraud. This is a war that this government has placed great emphasis on and which we must be committed to in the future as well, because our public services need funding by us all and everyone must pay what corresponds to them.

P. Bueno.-Leaving names out of this, but as President of the Government, should a minister abstain from taking a measure whereby his family directly benefits?

President of the Government.- The problem is that we don't know whether the minister knew that this measure would directly benefit his family or not.

P. Bueno.- Did José Manuel Soria resign because he lied or because he had companies in places where it was possible to avoid paying taxes that are obligatory in Spain?

President of the Government.- According to what he told us, and according to him this is what he told the public, he presented his resignation because he made a mistake when managing the news that was made public about him.

P. Bueno.- Because he lied.

President of the Government.- Because he lied or because he was unaware, or forgot something about this at a certain point in time

P. Bueno.- That his father founded a company?

President of the Government.- Yes, that was something from 20-odd years ago and the company was indeed a family business set up by his father. He told me that he didn't remember about it. 20 years… That is, of course, absolutely plausible, but he assumed responsibility and abandoned politics.

P. Bueno.- But he signed the accounts each year, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government.- I am telling you what he told me. I don't know what Mr Soria did, but I obviously believe him. But I don't know what Mr Soria did at the beginning of the 90s, nor his father's company, obviously. You cannot ask me to know about that. Of course, in the conversation I had with him, he convinced me of that. At any event, he has presented his resignation and I respect him and thank him for his enormous effort over these four years.

P. Bueno.- So you believe, as Minister Montoro does, that it is absolutely incompatible to form part of the Government of Spain while holding funds in a tax haven?

President of the Government.- I am not going to comment on that.

P. Bueno.- That is what one of your government ministers said.

President of the Government.- Yes, and precisely because of that. We are not going to talk about this. Listen, Mr Soria has presented his resignation. Out of all the people who have appeared in the 'Panama Papers', in which he didn't figure, in the end he has been the only one affected. And he has taken his decision, it was courageous, it was coherent and I believe we must respect it.

P. Bueno.- Along the way, you have lost, I don't know whether the friendship, but clearly the close relations you had with people who were very important for you and who you have called friends: Jaume Matas, Francisco Camps, Rita Barberá, José Manuel Soria. When all these things happen close to you, what does that make you think? Do they remain your friends on a personal level?

President of the Government.- Some of these people yes; but with others the relationship is now undoubtedly different. This happens in many walks of life. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect society. You quote certain cases to me, while I can tell you that I could quote infinitely more cases of people who have given themselves over to political life than those you have listed, and this is the vast majority of people, who are honest, decent people without problems, nor who have caused any difficulties. From among the people who have resigned and those who have abandoned politics, you must also be discerning.

P. Bueno.- Do you think you were mistaken in choosing people who were your friends for certain posts? There are lots of them who are very close to you, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government.- Above all in terms of the ministers I have appointed over the course of these four years, I believe that this government has had no problems related to the activities of the government. I haven't had any. So, I believe I have used reasonable criteria in making my appointments.

P. Bueno.- The Supreme Court has shelved the case opened against the former Mayor of Jerez, from your party, although the contract she signed was flawed, she trusted in her collaborators and is not guilty, according to the Supreme Court. Do you believe that the same thing happened to you with Bárcenas and his unofficial accounts?

President of the Government.- I have never been summoned to appear in court.

P. Bueno.- Ricardo Costa has called for you to appear as a witness in the allegedly illegal financing of the People's Party in Valencia.

President of the Government.- What I have been asked is to give evidence as a witness to specify the functions of the general secretary of the party in a specific region.

P. Bueno.- He maintains that the managers, according to the internal regulations, are appointed and controlled from Calle Génova. Is that the case?

President of the Government.- Quite frankly, I don't know. For me to be called to trial, because he wishes to defend himself, in order for me to say what his functions are, is something he is entitled to do to defend himself in the best way he deems fit and opportune; but that has nothing to do with any incorrect activities that I may have taken part in. Because what I have been summoned for is to appear as a witness to say what the functions of a general secretary are which, furthermore, are contained in the party regulations. You will appreciate that I will not go into the functions of a manager or of anyone else, because I have never been involved in this type of issue.

P. Bueno.- But I imagine that the manager is accountable to the general secretary, isn't he?

President of the Government.- I don't know. Listen, I am the President of the People's Party, but I devote my time to politics, just as I imagine you are not involved in the activities of the management team of Cadena SER. Or are you?

P. Bueno.- I don't run Cadena SER, whereas you run the party.

President of the Government.- So, you have your responsibilities and I have mine, which are others.

P. Bueno.- Did you know at any time that the money being handled by Bárcenas was being used, for example, to pay for the works in "black money" on Calle Génova?

President of the Government.- No, never. And I say this to you loud and clear. I never knew. I was asked this question the last time I was here and I said the same to you then. And whenever you ask me this question, I will answer the same. I never knew.

P. Bueno.- Are you concerned, Mr Rajoy, that we are at the start of another campaign and yet there is no let-up in the serious situations of alleged corruption, and of investigations that affect your party?

President of the Government.- My party and other parties. Of course that concerns me.

P. Bueno.- While that is true, they particularly affect your party.

President of the Government.- Yes, and I am saying that this obviously concerns me. That is why we have taken measures and that is why we can say that the justice system, the public prosecutor's office, the State tax agency, the customs service, the police, the Guardia Civil and all the State law enforcement services act to ensure that the law is upheld. That is what is important and that should comfort us somewhat.

There are also laws now that make it more difficult for this type of case to happen and I will continue to fight as hard as I need to ensure that this does not happen again.

P. Bueno.- By the way, I believe that only yesterday Dolores de Cospedal complained that there is information leaking out of the Tax Agency on the tax situation of certain people. Have you spoken with Montoro about this?

President of the Government.- Yes. I have the highest opinion of the State Tax agency, of the inspectors and the deputy inspectors… As I said, uncovering 50 billion euros in tax fraud is certainly not a negative figure, and hence, I am of the highest opinion. It may be that, as in any walk of life anywhere, things happen that should not happen, but this is far from the general case of the State Tax Agency.

P. Bueno.- Mr Rajoy, why has the government left it so late in the day to commence talks with the Regional Government of Catalonia? Talks about everyday events, but formal talks anyway. You have met with Puigdemont and the Vice-President of the Government has met with the Vice-President of the Regional Government, Oriol Junqueras.

President of the Government.- There have always been talks. Who do you think has been…?

P. Bueno.- But not of this formal nature.

President of the Government.- Perhaps not with the degree of formality. It is true that we have also been in a period of elections, which has then been prolonged, and we said: it is now time to start to resolve certain things. But for a long time now we have also been resolving very major problems that the Regional Government of Catalonia had such as, for example, dealing with its debt maturities and paying suppliers which is something that, in reality, is important for citizens there as a whole.

Hence, the relations between the public authorities have worked normally, although there then may be discrepancies on certain specific issues. We have appealed against certain laws to the Constitutional Court, and they have appealed against certain laws approved by the national Parliament. We have tried to talk and say, let's make an effort to avoid this type of dynamic, or at least to reduce it to a minimum, but of course whenever someone flaunts the law it is clear that the best thing is for this to be resolved by the Constitutional Court rather than leaving an unconstitutional law in force and effect.

P. Bueno.- In this disposition that you assure us exists in dialogue with the PSOE, if we once again end up with a fragmented Parliament, would you consider, would you study, will you be prepared to look at the Socialist proposal to reform the Constitution, and for all the people of Spain to vote on this and then for the Catalans to vote on a reform of their regional statute? This is a very specific issue and at the centre of Spanish public life as proposed by the Socialists. Would you be prepared to study this?

President of the Government.- Yes, but if they explain to me exactly what it is that they want for the Spanish people and the people of Catalonia to vote on.

P. Bueno.- But that will be seen in the negotiations, won't it?

President of the Government.- Yes, yes, but it is only right to know where they are heading, isn't it, because recently here we have become a little used to, or too used to, making headlines instead of specifying anything; that is the "new political way" and these things we are hearing…

P. Bueno.- That is old news, don't you think? This comes from the Granada Declaration made by the socialists.

President of the Government.- Yes, from two or three years ago. If they want to reform the Constitution, I have already said that I am prepared to talk, but come on, it would be good to know what they want to reform; and then if they want to hold a referendum throughout Spain, it would be good to know what it is that we want to ask the Spanish people; and then if we want to do the same in Catalonia, it would also be good to know what it is they want to do.

Hence, on these issues it is right to specify, because what I have seen over the course of these four months is a lot of fuss, too many photos, too much "you said, he said", and too little content. I believe that politicians, governors and those that aspire to govern must be very familiar with the issues, they must study them, they must make specific proposals, and hence leave propaganda to one side.

For me, how they are proposing things, is propaganda. They should tell me exactly what they want to reform and then I will be prepared to consider this.

P. Bueno.- Spain committed to receiving 9,273 refugees, but we have only received 18, Mr Rajoy. At this rate we would need 133 years to meet our commitment. Despite the offers from the Region of Valencia, from the City Council of Barcelona and from the City Council of Madrid, why are they not arriving?

President of the Government.- Let me explain to you. In reality, we have undertaken to bring 1,700 people here - the concept is called "resettlement" because they come from outside the European Union, from Turkey - and then another 15,000 people from Greece and from Italy. That is our commitment. And from Hungary, because the issue is that, as Hungary has not accepted anyone, these people are within the 9,000 quota that you mentioned.

P. Bueno.- 18 in one year.

President of the Government.- Yes, indeed. Us and all the other countries in the European Union. But there are many countries involved and many players involved in this process. In fact, we went to Italy, virtually one week after having made this commitment, to carry out a pilot project with 50 people, and in the end we could only bring 18 people here, because the others didn't want to. Now, back in the month of March, we once again reiterated, both to Greece and to Turkey, our intention to bring people here and I hope that in a few days - I hope, because the intention we made clear on 1 March - some 150 people will come here from Greece and another 285 from Turkey, because we have being saying since 1 March that we are willing for them to come here.

P. Bueno.- But we have the capacity to take in a lot more than 400, don't we?

President of the Government.- Yes, but, for the time being, we haven't managed to make them come here, not us, nor the other countries in the European Union. Sometimes it is said that "the guilty parties are France, Germany, Spain and the United Kingdom" for them not coming, but perhaps those who are guilty are in fact in other places.

P. Bueno.- What do you think about the proposal that the Commission will make public today to sanction those countries with a fine of 250,000 euros for each refugee they reject and to pass on this money to those that are accepted?

President of the Government.- We are not going to reject anyone. Moreover, we were one of the first countries to take on this commitment. It is true that there are quite a few countries that have said that they are not willing to receive anyone, and important countries like Poland. This may be beneficial to us that they have taken this decision but I would like to see this debated, for them to explain themselves and to listen to everyone's reasons.

What I would say is that Spain… Just look at what has changed in our country: 40 years ago the foreign population in Spain was 1.7% whereas we are now one of the great countries in the European Union, the country where more foreigners live in proportion to the number of inhabitants, above 10%. And we have undergone what I believe is a wonderful integration process. If you take the Labour Force Survey, you will see that more than 10% of those who work in Spain are foreigners and I am not including those who have dual nationality, who are counted as Spaniards.

Hence, this is a welcoming country. I believe that we have done things well, I believe that all of those people who have come here from abroad have integrated well, have collaborated, they pay their National Insurance contributions…

P. Bueno.- Whose fault is it that only 18 refugees have arrived here?

President of the Government.- In the first place it was the fault of Italy and Greece, who were under an obligation to create the 'hotspots', but didn't. At this point in time, Turkey… Just look, the agreement with Turkey came under heavy criticism but the number of people who are crossing from Turkey to the Greek islands has fallen by 95%.

P. Bueno.- They now drown in the Channel of Sicily, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government.- No, no.

P. Bueno.- Are they not drowning, or don't we want them…?

President of the Government.- At the moment, and fortunately, a lot fewer people are dying than before, which is another of the obligations we have as States. Hence, when certain things are done well and work, and on that matter 28 countries reached an agreement, which is not easy, it is also good to acknowledge that. It is not good to always be talking about what is negative. Steps are being taken in the right direction. Before we were talking about neither resettlement nor relocation, nor were we going to redistribute refugees. But we are now doing this.

Now, this is a slow and difficult process, but I can tell you that on 1 March, Spain once again reiterated that it was ready and willing to receive people, as other countries have done, because I have spoken with other European leaders. Believe me that it is not that easy and straight-forward to do this.

P. Bueno.- We must finish now, Mr Rajoy. I believe that the last time we spoke there was also a fundamental issue, I can't remember what on that occasion. It is not that strange, right, due to the level and intensity of Spanish football. What is going to happen tonight?

President of the Government.- It is impressive. I think that we are going to see a final in Milan like we saw in Lisbon a couple of years ago between Real Madrid and Atletico de Madrid. And let me add something else: in the Europa League, there are two semi-finals with Spanish teams tomorrow - Villarreal and Seville, and we could see something truly noteworthy, which is that there could be four Spanish teams taking part in the final of the Champions League and the final of the Europa League. In other words, all the teams could be Spanish.

P. Bueno.- But you will enjoy tonight more than last night.

President of the Government.- I suffered a great deal last night, because I am a Real Madrid fan, but you have to acknowledge that Atlético de Madrid is becoming a much-loved club. They make you suffer and the truth is that I suffered a great deal, but was very pleased in the end.

P. Bueno.- Mr Rajoy, until the election campaign. We look forward to seeing you here again and thank you for coming.

President of the Government.- It has been a pleasure. Thank you very much.