Interview with President of the Government on programme "Salvados" on La Sexta

Madrid

Jordi Évole.- Mariano Rajoy, I feel like making a wish, like someone seeing a falling star, because I have you here before me, in flesh and blood, and not on a TV screen, like in the last four years.

President of the Government.- Ask for a wish and if I can, I will grant it. The thing is, although I am the President of the Government, I can only do certain things, and not too much at the moment. I would like to be able to do more things.

J. Évole.- It's a shame you can't do much because people always expect the President of the Government to have enough power.

President of the Government.- And they are absolutely right to expect the President of the Government to do more, but unfortunately that is not always possible.

J. Évole.- Why have you decided to grant this interview at this time?

President of the Government.- Because you have asked me for it and that seems fair to me. You are a renowned journalist, you are followed by many people and hence…

J. Évole.- That depends on the day.

President of the Government.- That happens to the best of us. There are good days and bad days, but you must always take global stock of things. If we are looking for faults or to get things spot on we are not taking a global view. You are a renowned journalist.

J. Évole.- Thank you very much. I appreciate that. At any event, we have been waiting for four years and our time has now come.

President of the Government.- The important thing is that it has come.

J. Évole.- Of course. A friend of mine said, "Rajoy must see things very gloomily to give you an interview".

President of the Government.- Oh really, and who was that friend?

J. Évole.- A friend from Cornellá.

President of the Government.- Well I think that you should say to your friend from Cornellá that he is confused. Rajoy views this very positively which is why he has granted the interview.

J. Évole.- You don't see things gloomily then?

President of the Government.- No, not at all.

J. Évole.- When your children are grown up and one day they ask you, "Daddy, when you were President of the Government, what did you do for the Syrian refugees that arrived in Europe", what will you tell them?

President of the Government.- I will tell them that I battled away in the European Union -and this happened a short time ago - with the fundamental aim of preserving the right to asylum, which is synonymous with civilisation and, of course, it is synonymous with the history of Europe. I took that battle to Europe and I believe that the Syrian refugees are entitled to asylum just like any other refugee from any other country. I fought for that, and will always do so, because I firmly believe in it.

J. Évole.- How many refugees has Spain taken in so far out of the quota of 16,000 assigned to us by the European Union?

President of the Government.- Spain has taken in those who have directly come to Spain. Last year, 2015, was the year in which the most people ever requested asylum in Spain, some 20,000 people. We have never before seen a year when so many people have asked for asylum. 10,000 of these were from Syria and another 10,000 of other nationalities.

We are trying to resolve a problem at present that is very complicated, which involves convincing all the refugees, who principally wish to go to the Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, as well as Germany and Austria), and agreeing at an EU level, to distribute them among all the different Member States of the European Union so that, on a joint basis, we can cope with all of them.

J. Évole.- But, out of those 16,000 people agreed to, how many have arrived in this country?

President of the Government.- Few have arrived. To this country or to any other. The country that has most is Greece, because that is their point of entry and that is where they go, and furthermore, although we have already tried to undertake certain pilot projects there were many people who did not want to come here but wanted to go to Germany and to other countries. That is the battle we must fight.

J. Évole.- But I don't think even 20 people have arrived yet.

President of the Government.- 10,000 arrived last year, and I am not talking about those that came here from Turkey or Syria.

J. Évole.- Yes, but let's not confuse the issue.

President of the Government.- Few have arrived here, but few have arrived in the rest of the EU countries either, at least on an organised basis whereby we are aware of their arrival.

J. Évole.- But when people see that out of those 16,000 that corresponded to Spain through an agreement reached by the European Union not even 20 have arrived yet, isn't that a little frustrating.

President of the Government.- It's frustrating, but unfortunately the decisions taken by the European Union don't go through as quickly as I would like.

J. Évole.- Isn't bureaucracy killing humanitarianism?

President of the Government.- They haven't arrived here or anywhere else. That is what we tried to resolve at the last meeting of the European Council. There are many people in Greece precisely because they cross from Turkey to Greece; then you have countries that have closed their borders and hence they cannot leave Greece. And what we are trying to do now is ensure that they go directly from Turkey to the rest of Europe and for the European countries to take them in.

J. Évole.- When you see pictures of the refugee camp in Idomeni, for example…

President of the Government.- Yes, it's awful. This is an awful situation.

J. Évole.- Don't you think, "We are not doing this right?"

President of the Government.- Yes, I believe that there are things that we should do better, especially since we started to work on this issue mid-way through last year, but, as I said, we took in 10,000 people here last year, in Spain, and we have taken on a commitment, like the rest of the countries in the European Union. However, unfortunately, these things tend to happen slowly. Greece and Italy must meet certain commitments. Things happen slowly. I hope that with the aid now available for Greece this can be resolved and be carried through as quickly as possible because this is undoubtedly a very serious issue, although the worst issue, if you will allow me, is the war in Syria, which has now been raging for five years. We wouldn't be talking about this issue if it weren't for this war in Syria. That is the most serious issue we are facing today.

J. Évole.- Will Spain end up taking part in this war, like France and Belgium?

President of the Government.- We are already involved… We have soldiers in many countries: we have a presence in Iraq, we are still in Afghanistan, we are in Turkey… I have been to Turkey and I have been to Afghanistan.

J. Évole.- And in Syria?

President of the Government.- We are not in Syria for the time being, nor have we been asked to be; but we are present in other African countries: in Mali, in Senegal…

J. Évole.- If you are asked to, will you go to Syria?

President of the Government.- If Parliament accepts this, then yes. I have sent Spanish servicemen overseas to defend security and liberty, and to fight terrorism. I have always laid these issues before Parliament and, to date, Parliament has always voted in favour.

J. Évole.- I suppose that in this interview we should talk about the post-election pacts, which are now post-post-election pacts, as a long time has now elapsed.

President of the Government.- Yes, this is a record. This is the longest legislature since 1977 because, as you know, the elections were held on 20 December and we are still here, and it is now the end of March.

J. Évole.- I must say that the whole issue bores me a little but, if you have something to tell us and have something new on this issue, please feel free to tell us.

President of the Government.- I have nothing new. In reality, I maintain the same position I have held since 21 December, the day after the elections.

J. Évole.- Yes, the great coalition. Just look, the great coalition… What there is in Germany or in Austria. The thing is that in Austria the Social Democrats are the leading party and the People's Party the second, and they govern together. And the Chancellor? From the Social Democratic Party.

J. Évole.- The other way round in Austria.

President of the Government.- Exactly. And a government was formed just yesterday in Slovakia. The Socialist Party won in Slovakia and formed a government yesterday with the People's Party, and they even needed the support of two smaller political forces. I know the Prime Minister, who is a socialist, Robert, a good friend. He has lost many points in the elections, but has managed to come out as the leading force and form a coalition government.

That is what is done in Europe and what I proposed here back then.

J. Évole.- This interview has fallen on a Wednesday morning. At this very time Mr Sánchez and Mr Iglesias are holding a meeting. That meeting may already be over and there may be an agreement between Podemos and the PSOE. I don't know but this interview might be a bit outdated in that regard.

President of the Government.- I don't know whether the PSOE and Podemos will form a pact, but I see that as difficult. It requires the PSOE, Podemos and furthermore, the collaboration, either via a vote in favour or via the abstention of Esquerra Republicana de Cataluña, of the former Convergència Democrática de Cataluña, of the Basque Nationalist Party, of the United Left and of all the splinter groups that make up Podemos. In short, what that means is that it converts Spain into a country that is impossible to govern, which is why I say that "I don't like this". I believe that the great coalition, which is what works in Europe, even at the level of the European institutions, and which I have been advocating since the day after the elections would be the best thing for Spain.

We would be sending out a message of calm, of security and of stability, and we would be able to work towards bedding down the economic recovery.

J. Évole.- At any event, can you guarantee that during this whole negotiation process you will continue to be the candidate for President of the Government of the People's Party?

President of the Government.- Yes, if the party…

J. Évole.- Won't you stand aside?

President of the Government.- No, I am not going to stand aside because…

J. Évole.- That is what Artur Mas said, but, in the end, he stood aside.

President of the Government.- I'm not Artur Mas

J. Évole.- That's true.

President of the Government.- We are different, aren't we?

J. Évole.- Yes, but Albert Rivera isn't like the CUP either.

President of the Government.- That's true, Albert Rivera isn't like the CUP; they're not the same.

I was the People's Party's candidate. I have been the President of the Government for four years. We have fought very hard because Spain has gone through the worst economic crisis in decades. There is still a lot to do and there are still many things in play. I still have a desire to continue. I stood in the elections, heading up the list of the People's Party, we were the most voted-for party and hence, we believe that this country has a future and we are going to continue to fight for this.

J. Évole.- If you are called tomorrow, for example, by, Francisco González, the Chairman of BBVA; Isidro Fainé, of La Caixa, and Ana Patricia Botín, of Santander, and they say to you, "Look, President of the Government, in order to form a government here, if you step aside, this would be good so that a government can be formed and thus ensure the economic stability of this country".

President of the Government.- If they call me and say that to me, I give you my word that you will know about it in two minutes.

J. Évole.- Really? Will you call me and tell me?

President of the Government.- Yes, I will call you and say, "These three people have just called me and they have said this". I give you my word of honour that I will tell you.

J. Évole.- Because this will not happen.

President of the Government.- This has not happened. It has not happened, it is not happening and it will not happen. But if someone calls me, as I said, I will tell you about it. But to date, no-one has called me and, if this government has managed to preserve something, and this is causing us problems, it is our independence and freedom to take decisions and not look any further than the general interest. We may then get things right or wrong, but I can assure you that all the decisions I have taken, and some have been bothersome and complicated - those decisions that you don't like to take - I have taken them in the general interest and not in the individual or specific interest of anyone.

J. Évole.- When the People's Party talks about these cases of corruption, it never talks about systematic corruption but about isolated cases. I would like to go over some of these isolated cases, for example: "Bárcenas", "Gurtel", "Acuamed", "Imelsa", "Púnica", "Cooperación", "Fabra", "Brugal", "Palma Arena", "Emarsa", "Taula". How many isolated cases of corruption do you need to have for this not to be isolated?

President of the Government.- Unfortunately, in Spain we have seen all too many cases of corruption. We have ejected all those people who were involved in these acts of corruption, we will continue fighting to this end and this is undoubtedly one of the main challenges for the future. I have already said that one of the things that I would like to do in the next four years is for us to take this seriously, forge agreements and agree among all the parties to be more effective in the fight against corruption. Indeed, although we are an acting government, Parliament has already approved the creation of a committee to try to be more effective in the fight against corruption. There have been many cases…

J. Évole.- But it is not systemic?

President of the Government.- No, no. I have been in politics for some years now and I have known many politicians from all the political forces. You can give me a long list of people who have committed acts of corruption, but the number of people, or political leaders, or business leaders or individuals who have strictly upheld what the law dictates and who have not been involved in cases of corruption is the vast majority. The thing is that it is not newsworthy for someone not to be corrupt.

But, as I said, the vast majority of people don't even charge for their services. I know councillors in villages from all the parties who freely give of their time to help their neighbours.

J. Évole .- I cannot deny that because it is clearly true.

President of the Government.- But it is good to give a fair, global and balanced account.

J. Évole .- But let me give you the example of the Region of Valencia. We have three provincial councils.

President of the Government.- Yes.

J. Évole.- In Castellon, the former President of the Provincial Council, Mr Carlos Fabra, is in prison; in Valencia, Mr Alfonso Rus, has charges against him; and in Alicante, Mr Ripoll, also has charges against him… It would seem systemic.

President of the Government.- No, it is not systemic.

J. Évole.- Isn't it?

President of the Government.- It is not systemic. You have only given me three cases…

J. Évole .- Come on! These are three provincial councils. A great deal of money is handled there.

President of the Government.- Yes, but in Spain there are 50 something provincial councils and more than 8,000 local councils.

J. Évole.- But here we have three out of three in the same autonomous region.

President of the Government.- Yes, well that's true. But there are 50 provincial councils and, as I said, more than 8,000 local councils, and out of these 8,000 local councils, nothing is going on untoward in 7,900 of them. At any event, that does not mean that you are not right about one thing: while even only one case exists, we must weed it out and do everything we can for you to not to have to ask me this question ever again.

J. Évole.- I would love that to be the case.

President of the Government.- Because that would be evidence that this issue has been firmly filed away as a sad episode in Spain's history.

But, I repeat, we should not generalise and always try to give a global account. There has been corruption, as there has been in other countries - just next door, in Portugal, even the Prime Minister has spent several months in prison - and we must fight this and be resolute in tackling it; but the vast majority of people, I am not just saying politicians - are decent people and it is also good to know that as well, and it is good to say that. We cannot say, "Spain is a country which only has corruption". No, there has been corruption and a great deal of it, but there are a great many honest and decent people. We should also feel proud of that and it is good to know and to state that, since it is good for the country.

J. Évole.- I would like to show you some statements you have made about people involved in cases of corruption. "I want a government such as that headed up by Jaume Matas in the Balearic Islands at this time, that is the type of government I want to see for Spain". "For us he is a model citizen and politician, and I fear, in case someone doesn't like what I say, that also for the citizens of Castellon". "I love you, Alfonso; my God, how I love you". Were you wrong, President of the Government?

President of the Government.- Yes, it is clear that I was wrong. You have presented me with three cases and I am sure you could present me with some more, but you could also present me with thousands of people about whom I have said something similar and they have not been involved in any act of corruption. Of course I have been wrong sometimes, it is clear that I have been wrong, but at that time I didn't know what I now know. And if you ask, "Did I get it wrong?" I will answer "yes, I got it wrong.

J. Évole.- And you didn't know anything about any of these cases?

President of the Government.- No, no. It is obvious that if I had known anything, I wouldn't have made these statements.

J. Évole.- And didn't anyone ever say to you, for example, about Mr Carlos Fabra, "Mariano, be careful, because this man sometimes behaves very strangely"?

President of the Government.- Yes, but we need to be fair with people, even though you can sometimes still be wrong. There have been leaders of my party and of other political parties who have been charged, they have been heavily criticised, have come under harsh attacks, their resignations have been called for, they have appeared on the front page of a great many media outlets and yet, in the end, their cases have been shelved. So, whilst we must be resolute against those who are corrupt, we must also try to be fair with those who are not and who are still sometimes charged.

This is not an easy issue to handle, believe me, Jordi, it is not easy to handle.

J. Évole.- You favour a presumption of innocence.

President of the Government.- Everybody favours this. The presumption of innocence is one of the main achievements of the rule of law. If we replace the presumption of innocence with a presumption of guilt, then we are going down the wrong path in terms of defending the rights and liberties of individuals.

J. Évole.- Just look at how some of the leaders of your party speak about Mr Bárcenas, "He is a man who everyone knows is a crook; they have asked for him to be sent to prison for 60 years and, hence, it is a true honour if he speaks ill of me". "But what is not reasonable is for the President of the Government not to be given credibility and for his dignity not to be defended in the face of these accusations made by a crook which, as I have said has made lying a way of life". "Of course you are all covering up for a crook". "He is a crook and has caused tremendous damage. He has done that to me and to a great many party members, he has damaged the country and the credibility of our whole system. This man is a crook". A presumption of innocence for everyone except Mr Bárcenas?

President of the Government.- A presumption of innocence for everyone. The courts must convict someone or not.

J. Évole.- They are calling him a crook.

President of the Government.- Yes, but it is clear that you can also be guilty of misconduct. Listen, we are talking about certain statements from certain political leaders at a certain time. Technically, although we are not going to talk technically here, someone, until they are found guilty by a court, is not technically or legally guilty; although it is clear that there is conduct that is reproachable and it is clear it is before it reaches a courtroom.

J. Évole.- Is Luis Bárcenas not a crook as far as you are concerned?

President of the Government.- As far as I am concerned… What I am not is a judge. Mr Luis Bárcenas is no longer a member of the People's Party, and neither are many of those people who you have mentioned here. However, other people are still members of the People's Party who were charged and who, in the end, proved that they had not done anything wrong and this was ruled on by the courts. Hence, I repeat, a balanced judgement, a fair judgement and a global assessment is what I believe is the most reasonable thing and we must all contribute to that. We must be tough and resolute with corruption, but we must also defend those people who have not done anything.

J. Évole.- Taking into account the number of honest people, which is the vast majority, in the People's Party….

President of the Government.- Just listen to yourself.

J. Évole.- I also feel this way.

President of the Government.- But nobody says it. Sometimes, we end up creating an atmosphere… It is true that there are cases of corruption, but it is also true that there are many people… All generalisations are bad. For example, people say that in one place people work harder and in others they don't work as hard, some are paid this much while others are paid that much... No, we must be capable of passing a fair judgement. That is important for the country itself, for Spain.

J. Évole.- So then, how is it that from among so many honest people so many dishonest people manage to get into positions of responsibility? At the head of these three provincial councils, for example, in the Region of Valencia?

President of the Government.- These things happen but I, for example, head up a government where I have 13 cabinet ministers, as well as the President of the Government, and I have had another four who have been replaced, and we have never had a problem deriving from their actions in governments. And that is the norm.

J. Évole.- Ana Mato had to leave for prior issues; she was also besmirched by corruption.

President of the Government.- Yes, but that was nothing related to the Government of Spain.

J. Évole .- And she was your Minister for Health.

President of the Government.- Yes well, but what I mean is that is why we should be fair. At present there are 350 Members of Parliament and how many of these have been charged? I don't know if there is a single one, which doesn't mean that none are not guilty.

I repeat, I believe that you are right and you are right to bring up the cases of corruption, and you are right in reporting them and the media is right to do so, but this must be accompanied by a global judgement. The vast majority of those who are involved in politics, the same as the vast majority of those involved in your profession, do their job well. It is like if you go to a hospital and there is someone there who does not do their job well, and hence you say, "all of those in this hospital…". No, it is very important to be fair, because we are talking about people and about human beings.

J. Évole.- Esperanza Aguirre told me on this programme that she wouldn't put her head on the block for you. Would you put your head on the block for Esperanza Aguirre?

President of the Government.- I am not going to get into what Esperanza Aguirre says or not. Esperanza Aguirre is a very important leader of my party, I have known her for many years now, she works hard, she does what she can to the benefit of her country, and full stop, and I am delighted. Everything else is pure speculation.

J. Évole .- But, would you put your head on the block for her?

President of the Government.- And what does putting your head on the block mean exactly?

J. Évole.- Trust her.

President of the Government.- Yes, I trust her. Of course I trust Esperanza Aguirre. I trust the majority of the people until they show me otherwise. I trust you, for example, and I trust…

J. Évole.- Let's see if you still trust me by the end of the interview

President of the Government.- You can't go about life looking for strange things or for people that plot things or for scurrilous machinations. No, I try to trust people and I try to give people every opportunity in the world. I like people, I get on well with the majority of people and, if there is someone who, in the end, I see acting in a way that I don't like, then I don't challenge that, but rather I try to go in a parallel direction in order not to coincide and thus be happier, believe me.

J. Évole.- I don't doubt that.

President of the Government.- You are right not to doubt that.

J. Évole.- That must be a good tactic, but…

President of the Government.- It is not a tactic, it means living positively, which is important, and you must try to do that.

J. Évole.- That is philosophical. But I would have been grateful to you if, when I asked you if "you would put your head on the block for Esperanza Aguirre?", you had said "of course", because now it is very difficult for a political leader in this country to answer that way. And that is a little bit sad, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government.- I trust her completely. It's just that I don't know… "You put your head on the block, you don't…" Where are we at? Thinking about headlines?

J. Évole.- No, no. I acknowledge that the question is topical and not very original.

President of the Government.- You are right to acknowledge that it is topical and not very original. One does not always get things spot on.

J. Évole.- Of course, I don't very often.

President of the Government.- And me even less than you.

J. Évole.- By the way, we interviewed Esperanza Aguirre on this programme on a Wednesday and by the Sunday, when it was broadcast, she had resigned. Today is Wednesday. Can you guarantee that by Sunday you won't have resigned?

President of the Government.- I can't guarantee you anything except that I won't have resigned by Sunday.

J. Évole.- Well…

President of the Government.- Is that OK?

J. Évole.- Perfect. Shall we go into your office?

President of the Government.- You are in charge.

J. Évole.- No, I am here, in your house. This is quiet, isn't it!

President of the Government.- This is a very quiet place and a wonderful place, but sometimes it gets on top of you. The problem is that you don't get out. Obviously, I only get out to…

J. Évole.- But that is the problem that all the Presidents of the Government always mention when they leave their post; they say, "I got isolated there, I lost a little bit of contact with reality".

President of the Government.- Every weekend I travel to villages throughout Spain, don't I?

J. Évole.- Yes, but you know that this is not… You travel in the official vehicle, which leaves you there and then picks you up.

President of the Government.- Obviously, and what do you do?

J. Évole.- I don't know.

President of the Government.- With all the paraphernalia. The thing is…

J. Évole.- Maybe that is the problem, with all the paraphernalia. Perhaps you should do away with some of the paraphernalia, so much security, so much…

President of the Government.- Yes, I would obviously like to, but it's not easy at all. That is not easy.

J. Évole.- I think that this issue of isolation is a problem, whereby you don't have enough direct contact…

President of the Government.- Yes, but then you get to speak with many people. It is true that you speak in another way, but everyone speaks another way. You also speak another way. People don't treat you the same way as Pepe Pérez, the civil engineer. That's just life.

J. Évole.- I can't stop looking at that file, Mr Rajoy, because I can see that the file has my name on it.

President of the Government.- Yes.

J. Évole.- It says "Évole". To help you prepare the interview a bit.

President of the Government.- That's right; I wrote it!

J. Évole .- Ah!, you wrote it.

President of the Government.- I wrote it so that I could review some things.

J. Évole.- I also had to do some preparation. I don't have a file that says "Mariano", but…

President of the Government.- Of course. It is always good to prepare things a little, isn't it? That, among other things, is a sign that you respect your counterpart because, if I came here with my hands empty, that would be a bad sign.

J. Évole.- I respect you a great deal, Mr Rajoy, I can assure you of that.

President of the Government.- I am very grateful. And I also respect you.

J. Évole.- I want to read you something that María José Alcón, the former People's Party councillor in the City Council of Valencia, said in a conversation recorded by the Guardia Civil. It said the following, "The People's Party has laid a trap whereby they have given me 1,000 euros in two 500-euro notes, in dirty money, and I had to make a legal transfer of them from my account to launder the money, since they have a lot of dirty money in companies, commissions, bribes. As you once said to me - she said - the only thing that works well in this country is corruption". Close quote, we could say.

When you read this, what do you think?

President of the Government.- I feel awful and it makes me very angry, but I don't agree that the only thing that works well in this country is corruption. I believe that there are a great many people, in fact the majority, who do not commit acts of corruption: politicians, business owners and people who are engaged in all sorts of activities.

This is an absolutely reproachable case, this person is no longer a member of the People's Party and I hope that these things do not happen again, not in my party, nor in any other or in any other sector of Spanish society.

J. Évole.- When this woman, this former People's Party councillor on the City Council of Valencia, speaks about "they have a lot of dirty money in companies, in commissions…" Where does this money come from?

President of the Government.- Quite frankly, I don't know but obviously, if I had known, I would have acted.

J. Évole .- But is dirty money falling into the hands of our political parties?

President of the Government.- According to what we hear from this woman, yes; but I, in all honesty, just don't know. But as regards the vast majority of the people I know in the People's Party and in the other political forces, this is not the case. In other words, this is a specific case, and there are many other cases, but this does not relate to the vast majority of people who live in Spain, nor to our business leaders, builders or those people engaged in all manner of other activities, nor to the trade unions… The vast majority of people meet their obligations, they work, they take their lives seriously and respect other people. Then you have these things which are what we need to fight against.

J. Évole .- Aside from the case of corruption in the People's Party in Valencia, there was one case, which we looked into on this programme, regarding the consequences of the accident in the underground in Valencia, where one person, like Juan Cotino, who some families told us went house-to-house trying to buy the silence of these people, and we then saw how the investigation committee was reopened in Parliament, in the Regional Parliament of Valencia. I have never heard you pronounce on this case.

President of the Government.- As regards this and any other incident where wrongdoings have been committed, I am in full agreement that they should be investigated and that the courts should take the decisions they need to take. The law, quite clearly, must be upheld. Now, neither I nor any other political leader can be familiar with everything that is happening everywhere around Spain. It is impossible to be aware of everything.

J. Évole.- But do you believe that the People's Party acted wrongly in its handling of the underground accident in Valencia?

President of the Government.- The People's Party in Valencia would have reported to the central People's Party. Yes, I am convinced of that.

J. Évole.- But do you believe there was any wrongdoing?

President of the Government.- Let's see what the investigation committee comes up with. I do not have any criteria on this issue because, I repeat, I cannot be aware of what happens throughout Spain on absolutely every event that takes place each day. I can't, you can't, a minister can't, nor the leader of the opposition or a political leader. We all know what we know.

J. Évole.- This is the front page of the famous SMS text messages that you sent to Mr Bárcenas. Is this the front page that most harmed you during the term of office?

President of the Government.- I don't know but this is clearly a front page and there are certain SMS text messages, and I regret having sent these messages, as you can imagine. But you don't always get things right in life.

J. Évole.- You sent these messages to Mr Luis Bárcenas on 18 January 2013. Did you know anything about the alleged unlawful activity of Mr Bárcenas?

President of the Government.- No. If I had known, I would not have appointed him as treasurer and, if I had known, during the 25 or 30 years that he was a member of the party… It is true that I then sent him an SMS from Almeria, when it would seem that it had been confirmed that he had bank accounts in Switzerland, thenceforth all relations ceased between us.

J. Évole.- That is what surprised us, that the day before sending the SMS information appeared throughout the Spanish press saying that the treasurer of the PP had hidden away 22 million euros in Switzerland at the height of the ''Gürtel' scandal; it was published in "El Mundo", "El País", "ABC"…, in many media outlets. And then, the next day you sent the message saying, "Luis, be strong", the infamous "Luis, be strong".

President of the Government.- You don't always get things right. What is clear is that…

J. Évole.- So, you did suspect something of the illegal activity or alleged illegal activity.

President of the Government.- First, Mr Bárcenas was tried and then, as everyone knows, this procedure was halted when the PSOE was in power and then, he was tried again when the PP was in power. In other words, the courts acted with absolute independence. It is the courts that must decide. Mr Bárcenas is no longer a member of the People's Party and I am now waiting for two things: first, for the courts to take the decision they need to take, and second, that this type of occurrence, which is what most concerns me, never happens again in our country.

J. Évole.- Have you ever lied about the "Bárcenas affair"?

President of the Government.- Not consciously, no.

J. Évole.- I ask this because one week after sending these SMS messages to Luis Bárcenas - I am saying, one week later - you went to an interview with Luis del Olmo on Punto Radio (Luis del Olmo: "When was the last time you spoke with Mr Bárcenas, President of the Government?") and you answered to Luis del Olmo "Well, the truth is that I cannot remember, Luis, I just can't remember".

President of the Government.- And what is your question?

J. Évole.- Just one week before you had sent him messages, SMS messages.

President of the Government.- But if you cannot remember something, it is only logical that you say that you cannot remember. You can't say anything else, can you?

J. Évole.- Did you truly not remember?

President of the Government.- I suppose that if I said it, then, in all honesty, I couldn't remember.

J. Évole.- Oh, come on!

President of the Government.- I believe that this happens to many people, that they cannot remember something. I obviously didn't remember.

J. Évole.- Yes, but about something that happened one week earlier and in relation to the person who was in the spotlight of Spanish current affairs.

President of the Government.- But I couldn't remember the last time that I had spoken to him. I imagine that if I said that, then that is why, don't you think?

J. Évole.- All the while that Mr Bárcenas kept silent, you protected him, didn't you?

President of the Government.- No. What do you mean by "you protected him"?

J. Évole.- That you didn't stand up against him, as we saw you do later.

President of the Government.- Let's look at what was important, as we should do in all facets of life. Mr Bárcenas was the treasurer of the People's Party; he was a person who did what all the people of Spain know he did back then; the courts took a series of decisions against him; the People's Party ejected him from the party and we are now in a new phase and it is down to the courts to decide. And I have already made an appearance in the Lower House of Parliament on this issue, I have answered various questions and dealt with various issues and I am not going to stand here, time and time again, recalling whether I called him one day back in 2011, or in 2013, or in 2014, because things are how they are and they have already been sufficiently well explained, if that's OK with you. Thank you very much.

J. Évole.- I simply ask you these questions because I have obviously not had the opportunity to ask them before, but today I do have this opportunity and, apart from that, I believe that this is a good point in time for you to dispel any kind of doubts we may have.

President of the Government.- Well I have dispelled all your doubts. This man is no longer a member of the People's Party; we are awaiting the ruling from the courts and, more importantly, we are going to do everything in our hands to ensure that these things do not happen again.

J. Évole.- I ask you all this because the people of this country have obviously seen how the President of the Government sent Mr Bárcenas an SMS text message and a few weeks ago we have become aware of a private Whatsapp from Queen Letizia to Mr López Madrid, who is the son-in-law of the builder Villar Mir, who is also tied in to corruption scandals. How do you think people feel when they see the top authorities in this country taking this attitude to corruption or alleged corruption?

President of the Government.- I imagine that they don't like it, which is logical, but the people of this country are also aware, which is very important, that the vast majority of the citizens of this country, of their political class, of their business class, of their trade unions, of their workers and of the different political forces, are people who do their duty honestly. And I am talking about the vast majority; which isn't news, it is simply a fact.

J. Évole.- And if corruption didn't exist it wouldn't be news either.

President of the Government.- Clearly. No-one is perfect. Things have been done and I have repeated time and time again that I would like to see this not take place again, as has happened in many of our peer countries. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and hence we must work to try to make the world a fairer place.

J. Évole.- You tend to quote a phrase stating that in the PP you have to face the consequences for what you do. I would like to know who has resigned, for example, for paying for the refurbishment of the headquarters in calle Génova with dirty money.

President of the Government.- Mr Bárcenas.

J. Évole.- And the chain of responsibility ends there?

President of the Government.- Who paid for the refurbishment of the headquarters in calle Génova with dirty money, if indeed it was paid for with dirty money because I, to date, don't…?

J. Évole.- That has been proven by the Treasury and Judge Ruz.

President of the Government.- That has not been ruled on yet in the courts. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I am not going to argue about this with you.

J. Évole.- But anyone else aside from Mr Bárcenas?

President of the Government.- He was the treasurer.

J. Évole.- And the chain of command stops there?

President of the Government.- We are all responsible for our own decisions.

J. Évole.- With what legitimacy can the People's Party ask the people of Spain to pay VAT?

President of the Government.- With the legitimacy of the provisions of the law that state that VAT must be paid.

J. Évole.- But this isn't the example that they have given in the invoices for the refurbishment of the headquarters?

President of the Government.- Yes, and that is why the State Tax Agency has acted and that is also why the courts of justice have acted. And, as I said, nothing is perfect, and I acknowledge that, as occurs with all the political forces and as occurs with many other people who are not involved in politics.

J. Évole.- Are you not ultimately responsible for the raft of cases of corruption involving the People's Party?

President of the Government.- It is very difficult to determine. The main person responsible for acts of corruption is the person committing them. That is the person who is principally responsible for the acts of corruption. I have appointed a government, and these are the people that I most directly appoint; I have appointed the General Secretary of the party and the people who have held this post have always been up to the task.

J. Évole.- But aren't you, as President of the People's Party, responsible for what happens in all areas?

President of the Government.- I am responsible for what happens in all areas, but the consequences of these responsibilities are not the same as for the person who commits these acts of corruption, as also happens in any other walk of life, as you are perfectly aware.

J. Évole.- What would need to happen for you to take responsibility for a case of corruption?

President of the Government.- For me to have committed the act or for a person directly appointed by me to have committed an act of corruption whilst in government. We would then, very likely, be in a different situation.

J. Évole.- In other words, you are only responsible for what you do?

President of the Government.- Yes, that's like if you ask the General Secretary of the PSOE or the President of the Regional Government of Andalusia if they are responsible for the layoff plans or for the training courses, or if the General Secretary of Podemos is responsible for affairs in Venezuela or in Iran.

J. Évole.- Don't worry, I'll ask them when I see them.

President of the Government.- Feel free to ask them but you must remember that responsibilities, like everything else in life, must be subject to a fair and balanced judgement. I repeat, and I have been saying this throughout this interview, you can name a case of corruption to me, or two, or 25, or 50; but there are thousands upon thousands of people, and tens of thousands of politicians who are honest and decent people. Politicians aren't perfect, just as no citizen is, or the press, or you and I. So, let's make a global judgement, if that's alright with you.

J. Évole.- The thing is that, as citizens, we see that when more minor cases than this occur in Europe, people tend to resign. We have seen two of Angela Merkel's ministers resign for copying their doctorate thesis.

President of the Government.- Many people have resigned here as well. Or haven't they resigned?

J. Évole.- Give me an example of someone important who has resigned.

President of the Government.- There are many people who were members of the People's Party before but are not now.

J. Évole.- An important example.

President of the Government.- All those people you mentioned in Valencia. The whole management team of the People's Party has been renewed in Valencia. All those people you mentioned before are no longer members of the People's Party.

J. Évole.- But the top dogs always stay.

President of the Government.- No. For example, the President of the People's Party in Valencia, Isabel Bonig is the top dog now; and the General Secretary is new too; and the Presidents of the Provincial Councils of Castellon, Valencia and Alicante, as well. Everything has changed there; absolutely everything.

J. Évole.- And the Mayor of Valencia, Rita Barberá? Former mayor.

President of the Government.- The Mayor of Valencia is not the Mayor of Valencia anymore and, for the time being, she is not being investigated or has been charged by any judge.

J. Évole.- But people who she appointed are.

President of the Government.- But not her. In other words, at this time she is not the Mayor of Valencia.

J. Évole.- Since you told me that you would assume responsibility when someone that you had appointed displayed negative conduct or was corrupt…

President of the Government.- Yes, but, for the time being, any negative conduct or corruption must be decided on by the judge, mustn't it?

J. Évole.- Have you now called Regional President Puigdemont?

President of the Government.- No, I haven't called him yet.

J. Évole.- What are you waiting for?

President of the Government.- He could also call me. But we were in touch the other day at the airport in Barcelona, on the occasion of the first anniversary of the Germanwings accident. This was a cordial meeting and we will probably meet up shortly.

J. Évole.- But this seems a bit like a game of cat and mouse in terms of who will call the other one first. It seems like a question of pride as to "he should call me…"

President of the Government.- No, there is no problem of pride, nor is it a game of cat and mouse.

J. Évole.- Really?

President of the Government.- No. Talks are going on with absolute normality, as with other things.

J. Évole.- This programme will be shown on Sunday but before, on Saturday, there is an important match, the Clásico between Barcelona and Madrid. You could take advantage of this, because, furthermore, this is a special day, with a tribute to Johan Cruyff, to go to the VIP box, something we haven't seen you do before.

President of the Government.- I could, yes, the thing is that on Saturday I have… I will watch the game if I get a chance.

J. Évole.- You're busy and can't go.

President of the Government.- That's right; I'm busy.

Yesterday, the National Sports Council granted an award, at my request, to Johan Cruyff. He was undoubtedly someone who did things and his actions as a footballer, and then as a manager, were major steps forward for the world of football.

J. Évole.- Who do you see less: Puigdemont or José María Aznar?

President of the Government.- I see Puigdemont less than José María Aznar.

J. Évole.- Tribute was paid to Vargas Llosa yesterday and Aznar gave a speech, in front of you, in which he said that new leaders are needed. Did you take this personally?

President of the Government.- No. In reality, he was talking about the world in general.

J. Évole.- Ah, OK! Not about Spain in particular.

President of the Government.- No, no; he was talking about the world in general. And it's true.

J. Évole.- But Spain is part of the world, isn't it?

President of the Government.- Yes, without a doubt. But he was fundamentally talking about the issues of the fight against terrorism, about events that are unfolding in certain places around the world, about being forceful…

J. Évole.- Which the press has taken out of context.

President of the Government.- No, I didn't say that. You said that. Don't have a dig at the press.

J. Évole.- Yes, I often have a dig at the press.

President of the Government.- No, don't do it.

J. Évole.- When you came to power, there were 14 pro-independence MPs in the Regional Parliament of Catalonia, whereas now there are 72, an absolute majority of the Regional Parliament. Have you been a bonus for the pro-independence movement?

President of the Government.- I don't know why you would say that.

J. Évole.- Come on! Because the number of MPs has multiplied by five.

President of the Government.- You would have to ask the MPs who were not in favour of independence before but are now. But this is like when the issues of… I could quote thousands of examples, but let's not go into detail. Ask the members of Convergència Democrática de Cataluña, not me.

J. Évole.- Do you not feel responsible for the way in which the pro-independence movement has thrived in Catalonia?

President of the Government.- Far from it. As President of the Government, I have done what I needed to do, which is to defend the unity of Spain, national sovereignty and the equality of the Spanish people. That is my obligation and, furthermore, it is what I think and what I believe the vast majority of Spaniards think.

J. Évole.- We will shortly interview Arnaldo Otegi on this programme. If he was standing before you, what would you say to Arnaldo Otegi?

President of the Government.- I could say many things to him.

J. Évole.- Name one.

President of the Government.- Apologise for supporting murders for many years.

J. Évole.- I will tell him. You often speak about common sense; you like a policy of common sense.

President of the Government.- Yes.

J. Évole.- I would like to tell you things that are happening in Spain, which have gone on during your mandate and which continue to happen, to see if you believe that common sense prevails. Let's see if we can make this brief. A "yes" or "no" answer would be great, but I will leave it up to you.

The minimum wage in Spain is 655 euros a month. Does it make sense for someone to be able to live on this amount?

President of the Government.- The amount is nine thousand, one hundred and a bit a year, because there are two extra payments. That seems low to me, but the vast majority of people in Spain are not paid the minimum wage. This minimum wage is much higher than in other countries in Europe and lower than in some other countries in Europe, but, I repeat, there are very few people receiving the minimum wage in Spain.

J. Évole.- Does it make any sense for schools which separate boys from girls to be financed from the public coffers?

President of the Government.- I believe in the freedom of education. I believe in the freedom of everything, including the freedom of education.

J. Évole.- Hence, you do believe it is common sense.

President of the Government.- Yes, All the regional governments finance this.

J. Évole.- Does it make any sense that in 2015 more than 67,000 homes suffered evictions while in Spain there are 3 million empty properties?

President of the Government.- We have made a major effort in recent times and the situation has been resolved for many people. The number of evictions in Spain at present is minimal and often these evictions affect individuals, owners of flats who weren't paid the rent owed to them and who live exclusively from these low rents.

J. Évole.- Do you believe you have done everything that could be done to prevent evictions?

President of the Government.- I believe we have done everything that could have legally been done. Evidence of this is that this phenomenon is now a thing of the past.

J. Évole.- Do you believe it makes any sense that in 2016 there are still thousands of Spaniards who don't know where their grandparents are buried?

President of the Government.- I would like everyone to know where their grandparents are buried, but I am not sure that what you ask me is indeed true, nor that the government can do anything to resolve this.

J. Évole.- Oh come on! You know it's true, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government.- Yes, there are many people who obviously don't know where their grandparents are buried. After what happened in Spain years ago, what I believe makes most sense is for us to try to ensure that these situations don't happen again in the future, rather than going over old ground again and again.

J. Évole.- Do you believe it makes sense that every property owner in Spain pays property tax (Spanish acronym: IBI), but that the Church doesn't?

President of the Government.- I believe it makes sense for agreements to be reached with other countries and that each parties cedes something to the other.

J. Évole.- So, you believe it makes sense because you are talking about the agreements with the Holy See, I imagine.

President of the Government.- I am speaking about something that dates back a long time and that no government in Spain has changed.

J. Évole.- I was asking you from a perspective of common sense.

President of the Government.- Yes, yes.

J. Évole.- Do you think so?

President of the Government.- It's debatable, isn't it? It's debatable. Not everything in life is black and white, is it? Fortunately, life has many shades of grey.

J. Évole.- Do you believe it makes sense for men and women not to have the same maternity/paternity rights?

President of the Government.- A great deal of progress has been made on this issue, but we must continue to work on this further in the future.

J. Évole.- Do you think the steps taken haven't gone far enough?

President of the Government.- I believe we can make more progress on this issue.

J. Évole.- Do you believe it makes sense for sanitary towels and nappies to be subject to VAT at a rate of 10%, which is the average VAT rate, rather than apply the super-reduced rate of 4% as basic need products?

President of the Government.- I would like to lower all taxes, but we must maintain our pension system, we must maintain our public health system, we must maintain our public education system… And my answer is the same if you ask me about any other VAT rate or any other tax; I believe you should pay less in your company as a business owner and I believe you should pay less Personal Income Tax. In other words, all of this makes sense, but what I also believe makes sense is for us to search for ways to maintain the major key public services we have in Spain. They don't maintain themselves.

J. Évole.- That is obvious, and I was precisely going to ask you about another VAT item: do you believe it makes sense for the Spanish people to pay a VAT rate of 21% to go to the cinema or the theatre?

President of the Government.- And my answer is the same. Now, does it make sense for books to be subject to a 4% VAT rate?

J. Évole.- I believe it does.

President of the Government.- But you could pay less. In Spain, the VAT rate is zero to visit the Prado Museum and all the national museums, 90% of the museums in the country.

The thing is that we must maintain the key public services. It is very easy to take specific things out of context. Do you believe it makes sense for the maximum rate of Personal Income Tax to stand at 45%? I would like it to be lower. Do you believe it makes sense for someone who only earns 15,000 euros a year to have to pay what they have to pay? No, I would like them to pay less. Would you like to see VAT for going to the cinema or the theatre to drop from 21% to 4%? That would be wonderful. And the VAT for restaurants and hotels, which stands at 10% to drop to 4%? That would be wonderful. About the issue of corruption, as we said before, do you believe it makes sense for someone to be able to commit two, three, four or five acts of corruption? It doesn't make sense to me; however, it does make sense to me that there are millions of people and tens of thousands of politicians who are honest. That makes perfect sense to me.

When we pull out an issue and look at the finer points, at the anecdote, the bad penny, in the end we run the risk of perverting the true reality of a country.

I believe in Spain. I believe that this is a great nation, one of the best countries in the world, don't you? It would be good if we all tried to convey the true reality of what Spain is, because that job doesn't exclusively fall to the politician; it is also the work of the journalist and of the interviewer: to be fair, not only to look for the negative points. I could write down for you all the bad things you want but, fortunately, there are a great many more good things. Let's be constructive and a little bit more positive. By acknowledging the bad points we can make progress and by acknowledging the good points we are saying, "let's move in that direction".

J. Évole.- Yes, but I believe that, as you said, by acknowledging the bad, progress can then be made.

President of the Government.- And I do acknowledge what is wrong. The thing is that I have the feeling that you don't acknowledge what is good.

J. Évole.- Give me an example.

President of the Government.- Look, I am going to give you some examples. This is a country that was visited by 65 million people last year. And listen, why do they come? Are they forced to or do they come because they believe it is a good country? This is the European country that the most Erasmus students come to. And why do they come? Are they forced to or it is because they believe it is a good country to come to? This is a country which has an unrivalled public pension system and an unrivalled public health system.

I am going to give you a couple of anecdotes. The other day, Mr Pablo Iglesias, who has a similar discourse to that which I have heard you say on other occasions…

J. Évole.- Oh, really. Are you insinuating something, Mr Rajoy?

President of the Government.- Yes. Nothing… He had renal colic and was treated in a public hospital and he said, "When you are treated in a public hospital, you feel proud of your own country". Well I do as well.

And when we had the Ebola problem here… Do you remember Teresa Romero, the hospital worker, poor thing; she was from Galicia, from Becerreá? She was infected with Ebola and was treated in a Spanish public hospital, and she got better. The medical staff, with the support of the nurses and other auxiliary staff, cured her and she didn't have to pay a penny. And at the same time, in Houston, in the United states, a North American nurse went into hospital infected with Ebola with a cheque for half a million US dollars.

That is why I say that this country has good things to offer. What country in the world has such good railway infrastructures as this one, or highways, or motorways?

J. Évole.- Sometimes a bit empty, aren't they! The trains, I mean.

President of the Government.- They may be empty but at least we have them. That is why I say this is a great country.

J. Évole.- I love it when you highlight the good things but I, when…

President of the Government.- …and that we must show our good side as well. I highlight both the good and the bad, whereas you only highlight the bad, Jordi.

J. Évole.- I am getting slaughtered here, President of the Government, very impressive.

President of the Government.- No, I am just giving my opinion, but, if you want, I won't give my opinion.

J. Évole.- Of course you have to give us your opinion. That's what we want!

President of the Government.- Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.

J. Évole.- I love to hear you talk about the positive things, because I also see them as positive; but I would also say to you…

President of the Government.- But you never mention them. So, let's make a fair balance of what Spain is. There are bad things…

J. Évole.- And you are here to tell us the good things and thus draw a balance.

President of the Government.- No, no; we must both draw a balance, because that helps the country to work better.

J. Évole.- And that is what we are doing.

President of the Government.- No. But I am.

J. Évole.- You don't think so, do you?

President of the Government.- You can now make up for this in the remainder of the interview.

J. Évole.- I also believe that we live in a great country. Will that help to rectify this interview somewhat?

President of the Government.- You are a little reticent when you say it.

J. Évole.- Don't you believe it.

President of the Government.- But it's true, we live in a great country.

J. Évole.- When I use our public health service, and I also highlight the situation of our public healthcare, there are many healthcare professionals who say to me, "it's a good job that we put our all into this because the investments made are not what they used to be". For example, this is a phrase that both nurses and doctors working for the public health system have told me.

President of the Government.- Yes, I believe that our healthcare professionals are one of the best assets in our country and that they work very well.

J. Évole.- But often this service is good thanks to the human factor.

President of the Government.- Yes, and that is very important. A country is not only formed by the government or the public authorities; a country is also formed by its people. You are a business leader and you hire people. In other words, whilst you contribute to your own future, you also contribute to the country. Believing that the government does everything is incorrect. Now, the Spanish public health system is one of the best in the world. And it is good to say that. Remember the problem we had with Hepatitis C and its treatment, which was very expensive. Spain was the first country to introduce this treatment into the public health system. Well that is also a very positive fact.

In other words, let's also look at the good side of things. Of course, I know that people are having a rough time, they have difficulties and there are those without a job, and for someone to say, whether in government or anywhere else, "what a wonderful country", they would add, "listen, I could do with some good luck". I am aware of this, but I am also obliged to try to give an overall judgement and, of course, to work to help those in difficulties to improve their situation.

J. Évole.- The next time I interview you we will write the script together. That way we can find a better balance.

President of the Government.- Not at all. I know what my job is and, moreover, you also know what yours is.

J. Évole.- But I believe that it is good for you to respond to all these issues, because you can clear away many doubts, and it is good to do this in response to certain questions, which are sometimes tough.

President of the Government.- I have never said that what you have asked me is bad, nor what you have commented to me. Do you have any doubts? I don't.

J. Évole.- Perfect. Nor do I.

Mr President of the Government, I believe that for you, who are a great sports fan, becoming President of the Government must be like, I don't know if this is a good comparison, winning the Champions League or the World Cup.

President of the Government.- It makes me proud and is an honour as a Spaniard. I love my country very much. Look, the best thing about my term as President of the Government and in my previous terms as Spanish ministers is that I have seen Spain. I have travelled to many villages and spoken with many people. It is also true that many people do not, perhaps, unburden themselves too much to me, because these things happen, but I am very proud to be Spanish and I am very proud of my country.

J. Évole.- And, now that you have achieved this, because you have, why do you want to go on?

President of the Government.- Because I believe that there are still many things to do: look, one million jobs have been created in Spain over the last two years and in the next term of office we can create another two million, simply by maintaining the same rate of job creation as in the years 2014 and 2015, and I believe that a major effort should be made in Vocational Training and in Dual Vocational Training - that is the key for many young people finding a job, and a good job - and I believe that we must commit to innovation and to science, and I believe that we must work, which isn't easy, to maintain this wonderful Welfare State we have: pensions, healthcare and social services - this requires a lot of work and a lot of commitment - and I believe that there are still things to do and I still have a lot of desire and will-power to do this, and the experience to do this as well.

J. Évole.- I ask this because, of course, you have gone, in the last four years, from having the best election results ever for the People's Party, in 2011, with a huge absolute majority, to having the worst results ever for the People's Party in 2015. Furthermore, we are now starting to hear murmurs in the People's Party calling for you "to stand aside…". Yes, to stand aside, some leaders have said this and some are saying that this is now widespread in the party. I don't know if that is the case. When you hear all of this, doesn't that make you want to say, "you can stay here, I am leaving"?

President of the Government.- That is common in politics. The same thing is happening to Pedro Sánchez on a daily basis and look at the mess Iglesias and Errejón have been in recent times.

J. Évole.- But I am asking you about your situation.

President of the Government.- Clearly, but I have to clarify my response with a comparison, don't I? That way it can be easily understood and we all know where we stand.

I believe I have the support of the majority of my party. We won fewer votes than back in 2011, but that is logical.

J. Évole.- Come on! A lot fewer.

President of the Government.- Yes, but the same thing has recently happened to the Irish Prime Minister who won the elections but with only 25% of the votes. Look at Slovakia where, just a few days ago, the Prime Minister's support dropped from 45% to 28%. We are going through tough times, an economic crisis, those in government have to take difficult decisions and are punished by their people. But, even so, given the situation we are in, 7.2 million Spaniards have placed their trust in the People's Party and I am not going to let these people down.

J. Évole.- And none of your peers, those you trust, have said to you, "Come on Mariano, let's leave it there"? No-one?

President of the Government.- No. Quite frankly no.

J. Évole.- How would you like your term of office to be remembered?

President of the Government.- As someone who was honest with his compatriots, who was independent, who may have made mistakes, and who had to take some tough decisions which, under normal circumstances I wouldn't have taken; but which, I repeat, were only in the general interest while seeking to preserve the independence of the government. And believe me, I preserve it.

J. Évole.- In this interview you are insisting on this independence. You said this to me before, when I made an insinuation about a call from a certain powerful banker in this country, and you insisted that "I have maintained our independence". Has anyone tried that you do not maintain such independence?

President of the Government.- No, because they knew they wouldn't manage to achieve that.

J. Évole.- But has anyone tried to?

President of the Government.- No, precisely for that reason.

J. Évole.- In order for you to be remembered how you want to be, do you believe you are heading in the right direction?

President of the Government.- These things are difficult, aren't they? Logically, there are many people who will never think well of me. There are many people who will think that everything I have done has been done badly, but there are other people who don't think that way. But that's just life. It is not good to foster unanimity, and it is even suspicious. There are many people who think that you are a wonderful journalist while others will see things differently. By the way, I fall into the first category.

J. Évole.- Even after this interview?

President of the Government.- Even after this interview. Rest assured of that and I say that honestly. And, rest assured that I would also tell you if that were not the case.

J. Évole.- Later, when this interview is over, I will also let you know what I think of you, and it is also good.

People are aware that many things are now sent by Whatsapp. I don't know if you have Whatsapp.

President of the Government.- No, I have a Twitter account and Facebook. I don't have Whatsapp. I have normal SMS text messaging.

J. Évole.- Recently people are sending a lot of 'memes' as they are called; I don't know if you are aware that there are phrases of yours published out there that have become very popular. I don't know if you are aware of the "muy españoles, "muchos españoles", and "alcalde-el vecino". Have you heard about these?

President of the Government.- Yes. All of those who talk a lot are in serious danger of making mistakes, above all when some people are out there waiting for you to make a mistake in order to poke fun. But that's life. What you can't expect is to be President of the Government and for people not to criticise you, whether fairly or unfairly, kindly or without mercy, every day. That is impossible; I am aware of that, I am not naïve, but what you can't do…

J. Évole.- I don't know whether sometimes you are shielded, which sometimes happens to Heads of Government, or whether because of your situation certain things don't reach your ears.

President of the Government.- No, no. Yes, yes.

J. Évole.- Who has told you this or explained it to you?

President of the Government.- A lot of people. But we are not going to go into details.

J. Évole.- I don't know whether your son or your wife have said to you, "I have received this"…

President of the Government.- My son Mariano is 16 and he handles all these new technologies very well, like all kids his age. That is, by the way, very good and very positive looking to the future, provided that you know how to discern, like in every walk of life, between what is good and what is bad, which is the case with these technologies, as with everything.

J. Évole.- I believe that these slip-ups, which is true that we all make when speaking, is causing Spaniards great mirth.

President of the Government.- Yes, I can see that. We must try to be positive. Humour is good because, moreover, humour is the most serious thing that exists.

J. Évole.- My friend, who I mentioned at the beginning, who I said to you that…

President of the Government.- From Cornellá?

J. Évole.- Yes, the one from Cornellá.

President of the Government.- You have to introduce me.

J. Évole.- I will do. Come to Cornellá one day and I will introduce you. He also said to me, "I think that this type of phrase humanises Rajoy". Because people say, I also make mistakes…

President of the Government.- Let me tell you something: politicians are also human with feelings.

J. Évole.- That is another phrase that has prospered, but the other way round.

President of the Government.- But it's true. There are people who think… Politicians are people who were previously engaged in other activities in our lives and then we became politicians, and we then leave politics and devote ourselves to something else. We are human beings who get some things right, make mistakes with others, we have good intentions, and we are no better and no worse than those who are engineers, or who run a cafeteria, or a television producer or a journalist. Some are good, others bad, others in-between…, as in everything in life. That is why I always like to make global judgements, rather than focusing on…

J. Évole.- Pointing your finger, being pernickety, that's what you mean?

President of the Government.- Taking the high ground, Jordi.

J. Évole.- This interview will be shown on Sunday. We have a great game in the Nou Camp on Saturday. What will the result be? We will already know by Sunday.

President of the Government.- Guessing the result to punish oneself is quite tough.

J. Évole.- You are a Madrid fan.

President of the Government.- I am a Madrid fan; I have been a club member for many years now, but I must admit that Barcelona has a truly impressive team. But these games, although this year it won't make much difference because the lead is significant - you even have Atlético de Madrid in second place - are truly worth watching because they encourage new fans and you don't see many of them.

J. Évole.- Make some time and go to the VIP box.

President of the Government.- I will be in Seville that day, I have my duties.

J. Évole.- The agenda you guys have.

Mr Rajoy, thank you very much for this interview and I hope that we don't have to wait for another four years, and if we do, it doesn't matter.

President of the Government.- Thank you very much.