Interview with the President of the Government on Informativos Tele-5

Madrid

Pedro Piqueras: Our guest with us today is the acting President of the Government, Mr Mariano Rajoy. Mr Rajoy, good evening, welcome.

President of the Government: Good evening, Pedro. Thank you very much.

P. Piqueras: And a particular welcome on a day like this that has been so eventful, so hectic. In fact, we could say so troubled, couldn't we?

President of the Government: When we met and set the date, we didn't know what was going to happen today. So yes, you could say that.

P. Piqueras: It's just that I was perplexed, Mr President of the Government, as many Spanish people are these days, in the face of so many uncertainties. That is why there are many people at this point in time who are waiting for a statement from you, for your reflections, on what is happening. How are you coping these days, and particularly since you started these investigative proceedings, this internal investigation, into Rita Barberá and the People's Party in Valencia?

President of the Government: All the issues that are in some way related to corruption are very unpleasant. Unfortunately, there have been more than there should have been recently. Yes, we have initiated investigative proceedings to see precisely what happened, and based on them we will take the decisions we have to take by rights; but which obviously, no one likes to take.

We have had to take many decisions over this government's period in office, and the key objective, and one of the fundamental points of our government's programme, is that these things should never again take place in Spain.

P. Piqueras: The first question is obvious, Valencia, and the preliminary judicial investigations into the donations, money laundering...We have even read, Mr President of the Government, that your party in Valencia had so many slush funds that it was difficult to uncover them all, that you couldn't do this. What do you know about all this? Why did you not take measures earlier, given that, what's more, it's said in Valencia that this went back years?

President of the Government: I have not taken any measures, nor has my party, or the national party leadership, because we had no idea of what you are telling me. We have only found out about it now. Before we had heard some things, but a few days ago, when the media reported... But until the gag order on the preliminary investigations was lifted we did not have information about anything. Now what we know is that many people, local councillors and others, have donated a thousand euros each for the election campaign to run the campaign, and it seems that this has been returned to some of them. We have initiated proceedings to find out precisely what has happened, because we still don't know everything.

P. Piqueras: You said yesterday that you were not concerned about the statement by Rita Barberá. That was initially, in the morning. Then, a number of your party leadership, the younger ones, whom you had appointed to renew the party, said that they did not agree with this, that they wanted more to happen. And then you initiated the investigative proceedings. Was there a confrontation yesterday in the upper echelons of the People's Party, in its leadership?

President of the Government: Not at all. There was no confrontation. I was at an event at the EFE news agency, where some of the under-secretaries were present as well, and they asked me about Rita Barberá's decision, which she gave in a press conference, to appear before a judge, because the judge had allowed her to do so, and the only thing that I said was that I thought this was great. But that has nothing to do with the investigative proceedings. I believe that one thing is what is happening in the courts, which at the end of the day have the last word, and another is the decisions taken by the party; but these things run in parallel and one thing has nothing to do with the other.

P. Piqueras: Given all this, Mr President of the Government, it's not that corruption can take its toll - we've already seen the election results, for example - but that some of the leaders, the youngest ones as well, are beginning to say that this could affect the future of the party. How do you see the situation?

President of the Government: I believe that we have to take all the decisions necessary to prevent these things from happening again in the future, and that is what we have tried to do. Over all this time, the police, the judges and tax authorities have all acted with absolute independence and that is why many cases that were probably not known have now emerged into the light of day.

We have changed many of the laws that are in force to be more effective in the fight against corruption and we have removed all those people from the party, always provided that we were absolutely certain that they had really not done things correctly. Because there is one point that is very important: a judge sometimes takes two or three years to decide whether a person is guilty or innocent; and of course, you can´t say to a political party or any other organisation: "Excuse me, you have to say in one day whether a person is guilty or innocent." There has to be a procedure and the person has to be listened to, because I know of many cases, as you do too and so does everyone listening to us, of people who have been the subject of legal proceedings and have then been acquitted, the cases were dismissed.

So we have to be balanced here. We have to be firm, but we also have to be fair, because there are many people who have been taken to court by another political party or by other people, and the judges have dismissed the case. Often things require time and require action that is just and balanced, because it is very serious if an innocent person is condemned because then these things stick and there is no way of turning the clock back.

P. Piqueras: Do you feel that all these things that are happening add fuel to some of the attacks against you, inside and outside the party? I say this because we're going to listen for a moment to the president of Ciudadanos: "Does anyone in Spain believe that Mr Rajoy is going to be the scourge of corruption in Spain? I ask you to be brave as well: to have the courage to make a clean sweep, to make a clean break."

It is a kind of call to rebellion in your party. What do you have to say about what Mr Rivera said?

President of the Government: Well, I said it that very day, because this statement by Mr Rivera was not made today; it was made during the vote of confidence when Mr Sánchez was standing for election in the Lower House of Parliament. What I said is that Mr Rivera had decided to give his votes for and order his members to vote for Mr Sánchez as candidate, and instead of explaining this, why he was handing over support and giving it to the Socialist Party when he had said that he was not going to do so, he then decided that he had to talk about something else. So that was precisely what I said that day and that is precisely what I say today.

P. Piqueras: Do you regret, Mr President of the Government, having rejected the King's request to stand for election at the vote of confidence?

President of the Government: Not at all. I don't regret it, because the investiture is a session with a particular objective, that a person should be elected as President of the Government; and I had the complete and absolute certainty that it was impossible for me to be elected President of the Government because more than half of the House was going to vote 'No' after the meeting I had with the leader of the Socialist Party, who said he was not going to support me.

So I didn't trick the House, I didn't trick my electors, I didn't trick the Spanish people or the King, and frankly I didn't make anyone waste a minute of their time. However, we then held a vote of confidence after a month of meetings, of one kind and another, and in the end we wasted a month and are in precisely the same position as we were on 21 December.

P. Piqueras: And now, after this failure, of the investiture of Pedro Sánchez, are you considering suggesting to the King the possibility of forming a government? Or are we set for inevitable elections?

President of the Government: No. On 21 December I said something that seemed very reasonable at the time, and I maintain it. We are now seeing every day how some people are meeting others, how some said "now Ciudadanos and the PSOE will form an alliance, and the two will meet with anyone who joins them"; and yet, now we see how Mr Sánchez is going to meet Mr Iglesias, and Mr Garzón, with others...

I have always said the same thing: as things stand, the most reasonable course is to do what is done in most of the countries of Europe in these circumstances: in Germany, the People's Party, which there is Ms Merkel's CDU, and the Socialist Party, have a coalition government and the head of government is Ms Merkel, who won, and the deputy is the leader of the Social Democratic Party; the same is true in Austria, but the head of the government is from the Social Democratic Party, because it won. That is also true in the European institutions, where there is a pact between the People's Party and the Socialist Party.

I believe that Spain, which at present has a major challenge facing it, which is to consolidate the economic recovery and continue to create jobs, can't allow itself the luxury of having a minority government, supported by part of the right wing, part of the extreme left wing and even by nationalists or separatists. The smart and reasonable move was this great coalition that I suggested on 21 December, when I said: I believe that it is also good to include Ciudadanos. For the time being, this has not been successful; but frankly I believe that this is what common sense and logic dictates, and we could do many things together for the benefit of our country.

P. Piqueras: What is true is that the left wing has already begun contacts; they are returning to negotiations, we don't know what their chances are. (Report by Sonsoles Ónega from the Lower House: At present, this is a step involving the left resuming negotiations. We are going to see the long-awaited meeting between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias, who haven't met since the PSOE concluded its pact with Ciudadanos. And there is another key point: Albert Rivera will not go to that meeting. Is there unease in Ciudadanos? Publicly, they say there isn't, but this is the latest news we can give you: Pedro Sánchez and Albert Rivera met this afternoon in the Lower House, to reaffirm and evaluate their pact, they say; but it coincided with the solo efforts that Pedro Sánchez is making). Mr President of the Government, are you going to make that call to Pedro Sánchez, or do you think it is useless, that there is no possibility of negotiation?

President of the Government: Pedro Sánchez has said that he doesn't want to negotiate anything with the People's Party; he has even said that he doesn't want to meet with me. I have decided to cool things down after this announcement and after Easter we'll see what has to be done.

Now, speaking frankly, I think that we should all act with a degree of common sense and with a minimum level of seriousness. The report we have just seen is not very serious, is it? Two parties that say...

P. Piqueras: Not the report.

President of the Government: No, the content of the report, of course: two parties that say they are going to go to the meetings together, then they don't; a party that clearly defends liberal policies which, in the end, pacts with the Socialist Party, but in turn the Socialist Party wants to pact with Podemos... What's going on? What, in the end, are Podemos and the Socialist Party going to pact with Ciudadanos? I really think this is not very serious.

I have been saying the same thing since the 21st. What I propose is what is done in Europe. I have set out five major objectives. The first is economic growth and employment, which is something that, by the way, no one talks about in our country. Today we have had the chance to hold...

P. Piqueras: We'll talk about this during the interview.

President of the Government: Yes, but this is something that is really important, because it's the great issue for Spain. That and the maintenance of the Welfare State, of our pensions, of our health and of our education. I'd like us to talk about the important issues, those that affect people's lives.

The People's Party has a position, we've maintained it and people know it; but, of course, all this "I'm meeting, I'm having another meeting, I'm breaking up, now there are two teams, now others..." really doesn't seem very serious. I believe that things should be done normally. If two people want to meet, they meet and say: Do we have the will to reach an agreement? Well, based on that, the teams meet; but if not, there's not much point in doing so.

P. Piqueras: Do you believe that, if another person was head of the Socialist Party, it would be easier than with Pedro Sánchez? I say that because recently there have been indications that Susana Díaz is preparing her arrival, once more, onto the national political stage.

President of the Government: I don't know, and I won't go into that.

P. Piqueras: Haven't you received any calls or any visits from Socialist leaders, former leaders?

President of the Government: Not at all. My only contact in the Socialist Party is its general secretary, and I haven't talked to anyone in the Socialist Party since well before the last general elections. I think there's no point in doing so because, if you want to do things well, you have to be serious.

The person elected by the Socialist Party is Mr Sánchez, and I am the President of the People's Party, and I believe that we are the people who have to talk. And, if we haven't done so more often, that is because Mr Sánchez has said that he wants nothing to do with us and that he considers that with 90 seats and 1,700,000 fewer votes than the People's Party he has the right to form a government.

I respect that although obviously I can't agree with it, and I have to defend the position of 7,300,000 Spanish people who voluntarily gave their vote to the People's Party. But they didn't give us their vote so that we could make Mr Sánchez president of the government with our vote; a Mr Sánchez who, what's more, has an election manifesto that consists, as he has said, of repealing all the work done by the People's Party over the last four years, work that in the end has ensured that Spain, which was a country on the verge of bankruptcy and on the point of being bailed out, in economic recession, with unemployment increasing every day and it appearing impossible to stop it - no one talks about the bailout now, or about bankruptcy - is the country with the biggest growth among major European nations and Spanish society has created a million jobs in the last two years, 2014 and 2015.

Now we have to persevere, because there is a great deal to do and there are still many people out of work. That is the challenge for the future, that is what I said to the Spanish people before the elections and 7,300,000 people entrusted their vote with us, and for me a person's vote is something very serious, and of course I won't use their vote to repeal everything that was done in those four years.

P. Piqueras: You know that one of the criticisms made by the opposition, and we said it here in another interview, is that inequality has also been created in this period, isn't that right?

President of the Government: Yes, it is one of the criticisms levelled by the opposition and I've discussed it at the meeting we had this very morning.

P. Piqueras: It's real inequality. It's a fact.

President of the Government: Yes, yes, of course. The main factor behind inequality, Pedro, is unemployment and in the four years before we came to government 3,500,000 jobs were shed in Spain. That is the real drama of our country. Luckily, now we have turned this situation round, although there is still a great deal to be done to recover and reach reasonable levels of employment.

I believe that two million jobs can be created in these four years, provided that we do things well: 500,000 per year, which is the number created in the years 2014 and 2015. That is why I say: let's maintain the economic policy we have implemented, which has worked and which is what will reduce inequality. But, I repeat, the main factor behind inequality, the greatest, far beyond any other, is unemployment; the tragedy suffered by those people, of whom there are still many, who can't work in our country.

P. Piqueras: Since you've already decided to go into some detail about the economic situation - and I've followed you, of course - I'd like to give you some information and it is that the capital of foreign investors in Spain... this is up-to-date information from the Bank of Spain, which says that nearly one billion euros per year are leaving our country. Are we in a situation of danger for the economy because of this?

President of the Government: Political uncertainty is never a good thing if you want to consolidate economic recovery. Of course, investors need confidence, markets need confidence. I believe that after getting through the biggest economic crisis we have had in decades, Spain has generated the confidence and respect of many people. Foreign investment in Spain increased, a great deal, and the risk premium, in other words, the price we pay for our finance, which was sky-high and at the point of making our country bankrupt, has fallen and is now at a very good level. That is why I say it is important to form a government soon, and that this should be a government that generates confidence. In other words, a government with a party like Ciudadanos, another like Podemos, another like the PSOE and another separatist party makes it impossible to generate confidence, because you can't govern like that.

That is why I have suggested the great coalition, and as I said before, I suggested this right from day one. And quite frankly, I am absolutely convinced that the best thing for Spain is what can generate confidence among investors and among the people who can generate wealth and jobs in our country.

P. Piqueras: Although we'll get back to the economic situation later, Mr President of the Government, today there was a piece of news, this very day, that two former regional presidents of Andalusia have been summonsed for questioning by a judge.

Yesterday, in fact, Mr President of the Government, all the groups in the Lower House agreed to create a standing committee on corruption. Do you believe it possible to make serious progress in this fight, in this problem, and to make it an example for people in general as well?

President of the Government: Absolutely. Of course I believe it and it would be a bad thing if I didn't. We voted in favour of creating this committee, as did the rest of the groups, because we believe that everything we do on this matter is crucial. It is one of the five main objectives I set out for this term of government.

We have amended many regulations. Sincerely, I believe that now it is much more difficult than it was before for people to be tempted to commit acts that we don't approve of, to commit acts of corruption. So I am convinced that everyone there will present the ideas they have that may be useful, both to prevent corruption, which to me appears the most important thing, and to punish it if there is someone who has broken the law.

P. Piqueras: I don't know if you want to make a comment on this appearance by Chaves and Griñán in the courts.

President of the Government: No. I would simply like to say, as I have always said, that Mr Chaves and Mr Griñán are not at present guilty, and that everyone must be presumed innocent. The case of the ERE redundancy plans is truly disgraceful and embarrassing; but of course I believe that we should not be inquisitors, because I at any rate have no proof that either Mr Chaves or Mr Griñán has committed an offence. It will be up to the courts to decide on that.

P. Piqueras: In any event, you must see things in Spain as very bad - I mean all you politicians - for you all to decide to tackle this issue and for no one to be left out of the agreement, no?

President of the Government: It's a problem that undoubtedly causes concern, and a great deal, to many people, and they are absolutely right to feel that concern, so politicians have the duty to try to provide a solution. What would seem very grave to me is that a committee should be set up such as we agreed to set up in the Lower House yesterday and that there should be no unanimity by all the political parties.

So I consider the creation of this committee to be a positive thing, and I hope, believe me, and there is nothing that I want as much from the political point of view as this, that we can eradicate this blight.

P. Piqueras: What do you think about the meeting yesterday in Barcelona between Pedro Sánchez, the Socialist leader, and the president of the Regional Government of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont? Were you informed of the meeting?

President of the Government: No, I wasn't informed of the meeting. Everyone can meet with whomever he considers right and appropriate. Clearly, my position on the objectives of Mr Puigdemont, which are nothing more and nothing less than the independence of Catalonia, is clear and well known. What is of concern to the Government of Spain is to resolve a substantial part of the most important problems affecting many citizens in Catalonia, such as ensuring that the Regional Government of Catalonia can renew its debt maturities - the Regional Government of Catalonia can't ask for loans or go to the markets because no one lends it, and it can't cover its public deficit. We have had to pay its suppliers.

That is what seems important to me, people's problems. With respect to other things, obviously I am in favour of the unity of Spain, national sovereignty and the equality of all Spanish people, whoever they are and wherever they live. That is my position and it is well known. But having said that, everyone can meet with whomever he considers right and appropriate.

P. Piqueras: What stops you from meeting with Mr Carles Puigdemont?

President of the Government: Me, nothing.

P. Piqueras: And why is this meeting not taking place?

President of the Government: Because he has never asked to meet with me, never. What's more, as soon as he asks me, I'll see him, you can be absolutely sure of that; but he's never contacted me.

P. Piqueras: I asked you that because, there was also a practical joke on the radio which all of us remember, in which...

President of the Government: Yes, but look, that joke actually reveals what my wishes are, because I believed that I was talking to Mr Puigdemont and I told him: "Look, you and I met in Gerona when in fact we officially opened the high-speed train line to France." I was with him. And I told him: "If you want, we can meet." In the end, it turned out that it wasn't Mr Puigdemont, but a comedian.

But that did show you what my way of thinking was, because there I couldn't deceive anyone: I believed I was speaking with him in a private conversation. And look what a conversation it was! In the end, it was broadcast across the whole of Spain but...

P. Piqueras: Were they recording it or was it live, probably?

President of the Government: It was being recorded, yes.

P. Piqueras: You have alluded on many occasions to the fear that inspires the financial markets; Podemos, the Podemos phenomenon. In fact the leadership of Podemos is at this present time experiencing a particularly difficult situation. Mr President of the Government, how do you interpret what has happened, what is still happening, in the party led by Pablo Iglesias?

President of the Government: It's very difficult. I don't like to give opinions about the problems that other political parties may be having. I am asked whether the President of the Regional Government of Andalusia doesn't have good relations with Mr Sánchez, or Mr Errejón with Mr Iglesias... I won't go into that, because I don't know. I don't even know the people; the secretary of the organisation that we have seen has been fired. I imagine that leading a political party is not easy. It requires a great deal of dialogue; it requires a great deal of discussion and understanding. We are all human beings.

I have some experience in this. I was deputy secretary of the party organisation for many years and a provincial president. You have to talk a lot, you have to understand people. It's not easy. But I don't want to go into that, because what's more I don't have the information and you shouldn't talk about things you don't know about, about other people's problems. It's enough for me to deal with my responsibility as President of the Government, acting President, and of my own party.

P. Piqueras: These are the upheavals affecting Spain, and we have spoken about many of them here, in this interview; but the world is facing other specific upheavals. For example, Donald Trump is about to be nominated in the Republican Party as candidate for the presidential elections. What is your opinion about this figure who is receiving so much popular support at this time in the United States, the dangers that he may involve?

President of the Government: Those are the elections called primaries, but the Republican Party is a party with a history behind it. There have been some very brilliant presidents of the United States who were first elected by the Republican Party militants and then by the American people as a whole, and I have to respect the decisions adopted by the members of the Republican Party. It's a different matter whether I like it or not. I don't vote in the United States.

P. Piqueras: Do you like him or not?

President of the Government: I don't believe it makes much sense for me to give an opinion about the United States campaign, because imagine that Mr Trump ends up as the candidate in the United States and I meet him as President of the Government of Spain. It is the duty of the President of the Government of Spain to get on well with the presidents of other countries who have been elected according to the procedures determined there.

I have my own opinion, as does everyone, but I believe that there's no sense in expressing it. It should be up to the people to decide, and I hope that the American people get it right, because the decisions that the US American president may take are very important in politics, not only for the United States, but as we all know, for the whole planet, and that includes Spain.

P. Piqueras: Another problem that is spreading across the world: hate crimes. Yesterday a shameful act took place here in Spain. It was in the Plaza Mayor square, and we saw how some fans of a Dutch football team were humiliating a few Romanian women who were begging there, in the Plaza Mayor. The behaviour was, obviously, shameful, and action is being demanded today by various authorities. Mr President of the Government, how do you feel when you see these things?

President of the Government: I feel very bad. It is one of the most disgusting and abhorrent things I have seen in my life, and I sincerely believe that we should take judicial measures against these real barbarians who at times make us doubt about the decency of the human species. It is disgusting.

P. Piqueras: It's also a sign that Europe is not setting the right tone and I don't mean only because of the Dutch fans who were in Madrid yesterday and did these things in the Plaza Mayor. I am also referring to something else: the thousands of refugees, mainly Syrians, who may be obliged to leave Europe, to take an about-turn, and be taken to camps in Turkey. They are people who are fleeing a war. Mr President of the Government, at least in Spain it appears there will be a common stand agreed by the different political parties that you will take to Brussels tomorrow.

President of the Government: Yes, I'm absolutely convinced that there will be a common stand in Europe. The other day we had a debate in the European Union and there, internally, I used the word "outlandish" to describe it. Asylum is something inherent to democratic and civilised countries and asylum is for dealing with people who live in a situation of war, who could die, or people who are persecuted politically and who precisely for that reason have the right to asylum. That is why these deportations announced from Greece to Turkey will in no way take place because they are also contrary to all international agreements. I think it's outlandish, as are some of the latest things we have been seeing in recent times.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, we could say that in recent months you have experienced everything, or nearly everything. The worst thing, on the personal front, is perhaps what happened in your city: one day on the campaign trail someone in Pontevedra struck you for the sake of it. He did it in the street. That's something difficult to forget for us all, eh! But as well as that, in the same city a plenary session of the city council declared you a "persona non grata" for extending for sixty years the facilities of a paper company that is causing confrontation between one part of the city and another. With this and with other things that can be seen from outside, but also sometimes from within... with all this, hasn't it occurred to you to leave it all, when what's more there are people inviting you to do so, who are inviting you?

President of the Government: No, Pedro. I was in Pontevedra this weekend, I went to a congress of my party in the province and it was the first time that I had been there since these two events you have referred to. And really, experiencing the support, the friendliness, and the sympathy of very many people, and of many people who are not of my party, who didn't vote for the People's Party, who haven't voted for it and will never vote for it in their lives, it comforts me and makes it all worthwhile. And I say so with all my heart.

Neither of the two things, of the two events that we have seen, was pleasant. For me it was much less pleasant that they named me a "persona non grata" in my own city, which seems outlandish, because the other thing was an isolated case; but I feel sufficiently compensated by the sympathy of many people and that is a great comfort to me. There are some good and very positive things in human beings, and that is what we should see in life.

P. Piqueras: In other words, Mr Rajoy, you're not giving it all up.

President of the Government: Not at all.

P. Piqueras: Thank you, Mr President of the Government, of the acting Government, for being with us. Thank you for your presence here in Informativos Tele-5.

President of the Government: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.