Interview with President of the Government on "El programa de Ana Rosa", on Telecinco

Madrid

Ana Rosa Quintana.- Hello and a very good morning, Mr President of the Government.

President of the Government.- Good morning.

A.R. Quintana.- Firstly, I must tell you something, because it is important for you to know this. Just yesterday - the day before we had agreed to this interview - when we were holding our political panel, the case of La Taula came to light in Valencia, a case of corruption that affects the PP [People's Party], and I spent the whole programme saying that "the President of the Government won't come now", and hence I must thank you because, despite this complicated and difficult time, you are here today, while I took it for granted that you would no longer come.

President of the Government.- You don't have to thank me for anything. I am delighted to be here. I committed to this and there is no reason for me not to be here and to offer you such explanations as you deem fit.

A.R. Quintana.- This case has come at the worst possible time: at the worst time of the start of negotiations, of the new round of contacts with the King, at a time when you are trying to reach an agreement with Ciudadanos and the Socialist Party, and following Ciudadanos having based its campaign on the fight against corruption. This case of corruption once again affects the PP, and although it is an old case I imagine it will make negotiations even more difficult.

President of the Government.- It doesn't necessarily need to make the negotiations more difficult, does it? We must try to avoid these corruption cases and the decisions that are adopted are important. What happened yesterday just goes to show, firstly, that there is no impunity and that, hence, the public prosecution service, our justice system, the police and the Guardia Civil are all working properly; and the People's Party has been and will continue to be unforgiving: yesterday we suspended all those people involved in this case of corruption and we have done this, not due to a problem in the negotiations, but rather out of respect for the rank and file and the supporters of the People's Party.

This issue is what harmed us most at the latest elections. We have taken many decisions over the course of the last four years and, of course, anyone who is involved in a case of this nature must be immediately ejected from the party. And one of the main issues for the next four years will undoubtedly be to take such decisions as are necessary to avoid these things happening again.

A.R. Quintana.- Many people will be wondering why during the whole of the last term of office you have not had such a swift, immediate and decisive response, which was one of the things you were accused of lacking. Has there been a change of policy or is this due to the period we are undergoing?

President of the Government.- No, there has been no change of policy. We probably did not respond correctly on certain occasions during this last term of office. You don't always get things right and we all make mistakes because we are human. But there is no-one involved in a case of corruption at this time who has not been ejected from our political force. And henceforth, as I have said, this will always be the case, as well as all of the laws and decisions of a parliamentary nature that we have adopted over the last four years. And, as a party, anyone who is involved in a case of this nature will be immediately ejected from the party, because it is the only way of avoiding these things happening.

A.R. Quintana.- It is being said in Valencia that there is still a pending investigation that affects Rita Barberá and there has been talk that this is a case of possible illegal funding of the People's Party. If, in the end, Rita Barberá is investigated, what measures will you take, because she is a member of the Upper House, and the same applies to Camps, who is another Member of Parliament? Can you or does this also depend on the intentions of …?

President of the Government.- I would like to say something, Ana Rosa: we do not know who is being charged and what they are being charged with, because the judge has imposed a gagging order. We know that there are people, some of whom are members of the People's Party and others who are not, who have been summoned to testify or who have been arrested. But, neither Rita Barberá nor Gerardo Camps have been called to testify or have been arrested. Hence, until such time as they are summoned to testify, arrested or charged with something, I obviously cannot say anything expect that these people are irreproachable because no-one, to date, has summoned Rita Barberá to testify or charged her with anything.

A.R. Quintana.- Because they enjoy privileges, don't they? But, just imagine, and this affects the case of Rita Barberá to some extent, if the President of the Provincial Government or the Secretary of the PP on the City Council are people who are involved; wouldn't the Mayor of Valencia be responsible in some way? Should she finally be investigated…?

President of the Government.- We don't distinguish here between people; but I believe that we must be balanced in our opinions. Rita Barberá has not been charged with anything, no-one has called on her to testify in any way: not as the accused, not as a witness, or in any other way whatsoever. So, I would ask for a little restraint in all these matters. I have no evidence that Rita Barberá has been charged with anything. If she is charged with something then she will receive exactly the same treatment as any other member of the People's Party. But to date that has not happened.

A.R. Quintana.- For the time being, it is true that we are talking about an investigation. I believe it was "El Mundo" that published details of a possible investigation into Rita Barberá's campaigns today, but this is still under investigation. But, are you saying that you are prepared, whatever the case may be, and whoever may be affected, to eject them from the party?

President of the Government.- Anyone. Have no doubts about that. Anyone. Yesterday, all of them.

A.R. Quintana.- And what about this week, and we will speak about this now, because I am very interested in finding out about what will happen with the pacts…? And four cases have developed this week suddenly: ACUAMED, Rodrigo Rato has been summoned again, the Taula affair, the first party accused… Does it feel as if, suddenly, you find yourself under a meteor shower?

President of the Government.- Things are what they are. I saw about Rato for the first time in the newspaper yesterday, but I don't know if it is true. They say he is under investigation for something, but I don't know exactly what. At any event, Rato has been ejected from the People's Party. This case has come to light in Valencia, and we have suspended all those people involved. In the case of ACUAMED, an investigation has been opened, aside from the case under investigation by the public prosecution service and the judge. Our institutions are working.

Clearly, no-one likes to see these things. This has harmed us greatly, but we have learned from this and it will not happen again in the future.

A.R. Quintana.- What will you do to ensure this does not happen again? Because, in the end, these people have gone unpunished for a long time now.

President of the Government.- They have gone unpunished but, in the end, the institutions work, don't they?

What are we going to do? We have already amended a lot of laws to prevent these cases and to punish them, and we are willing to make any other amendments that may be useful to that end. Of course, we are going to ensure, and this has happened during the last term of office and as has been clearly seen, the full independence of the public prosecutor's office, the State law enforcement agencies, the tax agency and also the justice system. And of course, anyone affected by a case of this nature will be immediately ejected from the party.

A.R. Quintana.- And if the party is charged, what will you do?

President of the Government.- I don't know whether the party has been charged. There is a problem…

A.R. Quintana.- Who will testify because obviously you are the president of the party? Have they called you?

President of the Government.- No. The party manager has been summoned in relation to the hard disk being wiped on the computers that Mr Bárcenas used when he was working there, which is what is done in companies: when someone leaves their computer behind, that computer belongs to the company, it is then given to someone else after being wiped clean first. But I have not been… I don't know what the exact position of this issue is.

A.R. Quintana.- You have spoken with Albert Rivera. After this case came to light yesterday, have you called Albert Rivera again? Have you spoken with him again? Could his attitude change? Could this affect the negotiations?

President of the Government.- I spoke with him on Monday and today is Wednesday. I haven't spoken to him again; on Monday we agreed to speak again after this new round of talks with the King.

But, just look, what we are talking about here is forming a government and the People's Party, which has been very seriously harmed by corruption, by our citizens, and rightly so, was nonetheless the leading party with a lead of 1.7 million votes over and above the second party, because people also valued certain positive things that the People's Party has done on this matter, such as giving full independence to those who are entrusted with fighting corruption and presenting the most extensive raft of legislative reforms to ever have been presented in the fight against corruption in Spain since 1977.

In other words, we have people who have done what they should, we have been capable of offering reactions and I believe that today it is more difficult to do these things. This case in Valencia that we are speaking about is a case that came to light a significant time prior to the elections. I remember that it was the President of the Provincial Government… This case arose in the month of June last year. The truth is that the courts, logically, need time to carry out their investigations.

A.R. Quintana.- At any rate, what is the situation of the negotiations at this time? Are they very complicated? After what many political leaders said about this yesterday, the People's Party has now responded and has decided to suspend the membership of all those involved; but will this measure be sufficient to be able to go on with the negotiations for a broad-based agreement? Will this be enough, Mr Rajoy?

President of the Government.- I don't know, but it is surprising to see some people giving statements on this issue. They should also look at what their own party is doing. In short, I am not going to go into more detail, but I am surprised after seeing certain statements.

I believe that what is important is that we are capable, between us all, of effectively fighting corruption. That is the most important thing and that must undoubtedly be one of the issues that are tackled when looking at the formation of the next government: how we are more effective taking into account that corruption is not something caused by a party, an organisation or a certain group of people; it is something individual, committed by a person who may be a member of one political formation or another.

A.R. Quintana.- Mr Rajoy, we are facing a situation at this time where there is a second round of consultations to be held with the King. What will happen?

President of the Government.- We don't know. The King starts the second round of consultations today and ends them next Tuesday. I have been summoned at five pm. I will be the last person to attend this round of consultations.

The King will do what he deems fit and opportune, and I am not going to tell him what he has to do. It would seem that there are other political forces giving him instructions. This is obviously a duty that falls to the King and what the King dictates, logically, will be the decision that he takes and he must take it with the due independence entrusted to him.

A.R. Quintana.- You have renounced the invitation to attend the first investiture session. Some people have strongly criticised you, saying that you have left the King in an impossible situation, one which was down to you, of being irresponsible…

President of the Government.- I have been criticised by some people, but the vast majority have understood this. The investiture session has one goal, which is for someone to stand with the aim of being elected as President of the Government, but I had no chance of being elected as President of the Government. I have 123 votes and without the votes in favour from the Socialist Party, or through their abstention, I cannot be elected. The Socialist Party has said that it will not vote for me, and hence, it makes no sense for me to say to the more than 7 million Spaniards who placed their trust in us that I am going to stand in order to lose the vote of confidence.

Hence, what is logical is what has taken place so far, that is, that everyone is summoned again to see who has the best chance. But at that time I had no chance whatsoever.

A.R. Quintana.- And now? Because the situation hasn't changed that much.

President of the Government.- The situation hasn't changed that much to date because the Socialist Party has now said that it will negotiate with Podemos and with other left-wing political forces, and that it will not negotiate with me. And, as I have said, it is impossible for the People's Party to govern without some kind of understanding - votes in favour or abstentions - with the Socialist Party. Impossible.

A.R. Quintana.- And if Pedro Sánchez arrives at the consultation with the King and says, "I don't have an agreement either, so I will not stand at the investiture session either"?

President of the Government.- Then we will need to continue working and we will need to try to reach an agreement. And the last resort is holding new elections.

A.R. Quintana.- There is talk that, if new elections are held, the results will be more or less the same, according to the polls: the PP will rise a little, Ciudadanos will fall a little or remain more or less the same, that the PSOE… but that, in the end, the final result will not lead to the right numbers either and that we would be back in the same situation we are in now.

President of the Government.- It is very hard to know that, isn't it? And that is precisely why I have tried to offer a reasonable solution. What has happened at these elections? These elections are different to all the other that have been held in Spain since the return to democracy in 1977. The majority party has always governed here; sometimes it has had an absolute majority and sometimes it has needed a few other votes, which it could obtain. But now, we have been sent a message by our people, which is: listen to each other, you need to talk and reach agreements. And no-one has received a majority. Furthermore, the leading party, which is us, is way off having a majority.

The proposal I have made is let's reach an agreement between the leading party, the People's Party, and the second largest party, the Socialist Party, and the fourth largest party, Ciudadanos; although the support from Ciudadanos is not necessary I believe it would be good for them to form a part of this alliance. Why? Because we are parties that agree on the main issues such as the unity of Spain, national sovereignty, the equality of the Spanish people and the fight against terrorism, and because I believe that we can do things together. The major reforms that Spain needs - together, we would be 250 MPs - would be reforms for many years to come and we would be giving out a message that we continue working to consolidate the recovery of our economy.

That is the proposal I have made, which I believe is sensible: three parties working within moderate limits, three parties that can reach understandings and which agree on the key issues. And then, you have another proposal, which is an alliance between the PSOE and Podemos, their three groups and the pro-independence and nationalist parties.

Those are the two possibilities that exist; the only other one is holding new elections. I defend the first possibility. I believe it is the most sensible, it is a moderate option, a logical one, it respects the will of the people, because the leading two parties would be governing, and I believe that we would offer stability to Spanish political life.

A.R. Quintana.- Mr Rajoy, some media outlets are pointing to the fact that it is impossible for Pedro Sánchez and Rajoy to reach an agreement, and that, to some extent, they also need the support of Ciudadanos. If at some point in time, in order to have stability and to reach this agreement between the three parties, the so-called great pact, you needed to take a step back, would you be prepared to take it?

President of the Government.- Many ideas are being bandied about at the moment, different bets and numerical engineering. I am in favour of doing what common sense dictates, and the first thing is to respect our people and those who have voted, isn't it? We cannot move here towards a model of Presidents of the Government who have not stood in the elections. I have heard some say that "Sánchez and Rajoy must go". No, Sánchez and Rajoy were the candidates of the two political parties that came first and second. In other words, if the leading candidate goes, then the second, third and fourth leading candidates could also go. So, we must respect the will of the people; I believe that is very important.

In the end, the question here is that the PSOE must decide whether it goes with Podemos and the pro-independence parties or whether it makes a pact with the PP and Ciudadanos. That is exactly, explained in a very clear manner, the state of play and that is what is dictated by the ballot boxes, the numbers and the seats that each party has. That is the choice the PSOE has to make and, that is why, as I said to H.M. the King the other day, I don't have sufficient votes all the while the PSOE does not want to talk with me.

A.R. Quintana.- In other words, you are not prepared to take a step back. Because, of course, people were also saying today that Mariano Rajoy will also have, in some way, to take a step back, if only because of all the cases of corruption that have affected his party.

President of the Government.- And all the cases that have affected the PSOE? In reality, our citizens have chosen and they have punished us harshly. Corruption is what has harmed us the most. But, as I said at the beginning, they have also value the decisions taken by the People's Party in the fight against corruption. Just listen, this has been very difficult and very complicated. We have gone through a legislature with tremendous difficulties. Our people have punished us, as they have punished the Socialist Party, but there are also many Spaniards that have valued the positive things we have done.

A.R. Quintana.- If, in the end, no agreement is reached and we must resort to new elections, will you stand as a candidate?

President of the Government.- I will obviously tell my party that I want to stand as a candidate. I have stood in these elections and I believe that I can show a very positive balance from this last term of office. Spain in 2015 is much better than Spain back in 2011; we are a country with economic growth, we are creating jobs… I have been acknowledged for all this and I believe that we are in a position to enjoy great economic growth and significantly reduce unemployment during the next four years, something no-one is talking about, but which remains the main national objective.

A.R. Quintana.- It is also said that the economic successes of your last term of office, which exist - we are growing at almost 3% - in some way have been blessed by the stars because we have lower oil prices than ever, lower interest rates on loans than ever, a spectacular rise in tourism - unfortunately due to everything that is happening in the Arab countries… What I want to say is that this takes something away from your triumphalism.

President of the Government.- Nothing good is ever acknowledged of us. If things go badly, it is our fault and if things go well, it is for other reasons. Listen, if oil prices are the same in Spain as in Germany, Italy or Holland, why is Spain currently the country to enjoy the fastest rate of economic growth and job creation in the European Union, because we indeed have higher economic growth than Germany, the United Kingdom, Italy and France, which are the four major economies of the European Union? And it is the country that is creating the most jobs.

What's happening? Have oil prices not fallen in other countries? Or do the actions taken by the Central Bank not affect the others? No. The truth is that we have pursued an economic policy that has been tough, it has been difficult and it has been complicated, because Spain was on the verge of bankruptcy. In 2012, Spain was on the verge of a bailout and the same was about to happen as happened to Greece. Just look at the wars we have had to wage here, whereas it has been in Greece, for example, that the three extra payments pensioners were entitled to have been taken away and now they are going to have to drop pensions again. Some countries like us, at the most difficult times, have found a way to maintain the main pillars of their Welfare States.

Clearly, our political adversaries are going to say that this is all the result of good luck and their management of affairs the result of bad luck, but, when things are done well, in the end, they lead to good results. We undertook many reforms, we controlled public spending and it would pain me to now see that a government of Spain were to be formed that turned all these reforms around that have proven themselves to be useful and have served for Spain to start to lift its head again.

A.R. Quintana.- Is it true that you haven't spoken with Pedro Sánchez on a single occasion since the elections?

President of the Government.- I spoke with him once, at the start of it all. I spoke with him once and I said that I wanted to speak with him and he told me that he didn't want to hear anything. He came and it is true that we held a meeting that lasted five minutes and he said that he didn't want to have anything to do with the People's Party. That same day I spoke with Pablo Iglesias and with Albert Rivera, and our talks were normal, they lasted for an hour and a half. It is clear that I didn't ask Pablo Iglesias for any support, because our positions are so radically different, but it was at least a normal conversation, as was the conversation I had with Rivera.

And since then I have tried to talk with Pedro Sánchez…

A.R. Quintana.- Have you called him?

President of the Government.- Yes, but he didn't want to meet with me. I respect that, but what I wanted, and what I want to continue to do, is to see if we can form this government which, I insist, is a government derived from common sense; it is a government such as they have, for example, in Germany. The CDU won in Germany, which is like the PP, Ms Merkel's party, and the social democrats came second, and they formed a coalition. The same happened in Austria and this is the case of the functioning of the European Union. The President of the European Parliament is a socialist, the President of the European Commission and the European Council are from the People's Party. And the same happens in Holland and in Finland.

Our people have said to us - reach an agreement and solve the problem - we, the Spanish people, have spoken. I believe that the coalition that I propose is one of moderation, of common sense, the European way, while what Mr Sánchez seeks I respect but I believe that it is very bad for Spain because it needs the support of nine or ten parties, some with approaches that are clearly against national unity and national sovereignty. In all honesty, that seems foolish to me. Now, I respect the fact that he doesn't want to see me, but it doesn't seem normal to me in a democracy because you don't lose anything by talking.

A.R. Quintana.- There is also another reflection to be made, Mr Rajoy, because now you are in a position whereby there is no other party with which to reach an agreement. Perhaps you have not acted correctly over these last four years in terms of maintaining fluid relations, consulting, making agreements with the other parties; you have perhaps been a little arrogant, or maybe considerably arrogant because of your absolute majority. Have you thought about this?

President of the Government.- Yes, but at this time you could also make another reflection. We have more than 1.7 million more votes backing us than the second largest political force. That says that we are not alone. We are not alone; we received 7.3 million votes while the PSOE was in the high five millions, and it is the second leading political force.

No one has managed to achieve a majority pact in Spain at this time. That means that it is not only the People's Party that has not reached an agreement to form a government; nor has the PSOE, not have Ciudadanos or Podemos… No-one has achieved this. Now, as the numbers stand, the People's Party, as I said before, cannot reach an agreement to govern if it does not reach an understanding with the Socialist Party because, clearly, I am not going to make a pact with Podemos or with the pro-independence parties. These may make a pact with the PSOE, but we are obviously not going to do that.

A.R. Quintana.- So, we are up against a brick wall at this time. Are you hopeful as to the outcome of the Federal Committee of the PSOE on the 30th?

President of the Government.- No. What I do… I have never got involved in the internal workings of any other party. What the Federal Committee does on the 30th seems good to me. My counterpart in the PSOE is Mr Sánchez and the decisions the PSOE takes are what it deems fit and opportune. Hence, I will continue to try to speak with Mr Sánchez, who is the General Secretary of the party, but I believe that we should all respect the internal workings of the other parties. I, for one, have always done this and I will continue to do this.

A.R. Quintana.- Today, the front page of 'El País", Felipe González - sorry 'ABC' it's true, because we were holding an interview with Felipe González with 'El País'; exclusive from Mediaset and Tele-5 yesterday - at a meeting with the European Union ambassadors, that they had asked him to give his opinion on what was happening, saying that the best thing would be to reach a broad-based coalition. Do you believe that Felipe González will have changed his mind after what happened with the raids yesterday? Have you spoken with Felipe González?

President of the Government.- I haven't spoken with him and I do not know whether he would have changed his mind, but, as I said earlier, this is an issue that now lies with the courts, and it is an issue that we knew about before the general elections. In other words, this is not something that took place yesterday, but rather this affair arose in the middle of last year, in 2015, many months before the general elections.

It is true that Felipe González said something that is quite reasonable. He points to a government between the PP and Ciudadanos, with certain support through the abstention of the PSOE. This is reasonable but allow me to voice my opinion. I believe that the closer the union between the three parties who reach an agreement, the greater the political stability there would be, don't you? Now, all formulas are possible. It is possible from a coalition government, from support from outside, through constructive opposition… But, I believe that, the more stable the government is and the clearer the support, the better this would be, above all, for the country's economy, because this would send out a message of security and certainty. People will say that here, in Spain, where many things have been done and the Spanish people have made a great effort in recent years, the moderate forces have been capable of forming a government.

Hence, for me, the closer the union between the parties, the better I believe it would be for Spain as a whole and the better it would be for the stability of the country.

A.R. Quintana.- And what would you propose? A coalition government?

President of the Government.- That is one of the possible formulas. You have one in Germany and another in Austria. That is the model used in Europe. Just look at the European Commission.

A.R. Quintana.- Would you make Pedro Sánchez Vice-President of the Government?

President of the Government.- Let's not get into those things, but clearly…

A.R. Quintana.- Well! After what Pablo Iglesias said…

President of the Government.- We would have to hear him out. But yes, Mr Sánchez would make Pablo Iglesias Vice-President of the Government. I believe that, for the time being, he doesn't even want to speak to me. In other words, we are not going to sit down and talk about those things just yet.

But I want to say that after the message sent by the Spanish people, we should take account of the fact that perhaps we are entering into a phase in which there are no longer majorities, and hence, it will be necessary to make pacts. Some are saying, "the Spanish people have asked for change". No, the Spanish people have definitively asked for change and have asked for pacts to be made, and the greatest pact and the greatest political change that could take place in Spain is that, for the first time since 1977, the major national parties reach understandings with each other. What is now normal in Europe has never taken place here since 1977. Well, perhaps, now is a good opportunity and we can make virtue of a necessity because, as I said, it is what I see in Europe, you can see this with the European Council, you can see this with the European Parliament and you can see this with the European Commission. I believe that this would offer great stability and a great deal of calm to our country.

A.R. Quintana.- And what would you be prepared to give way on? A pact is always a negotiation and in a negotiation you cannot impose that "this is what I want and make everyone else give way". You must give way on something; the labour reform, for example, which is one of the…, or the Education Act, or on issues of corruption. All of those issues that the other parties have pointed to.

President of the Government.- Yes, clearly a pact implies concessions by all parties and a pact also has great virtual reality which allows major reforms to be undertaken with support from the majority, and hence, these would be reforms that would last for a long time and offer a great deal of security, stability and certainty.

Now, what can we give way on? To make pacts you don't start by saying "we cannot speak about this", but there are some things about which I am not prepared to speak: national unity, the equality of all the people of Spain, national sovereignty, the fight against terrorism, our membership of the European Union and the Euro. There are some things… Not me, nor anyone else. Not the Socialist Party, not anyone else. Aside from that, the main thing must be to set goals. I believe that there are four main goals for the coming years: firstly, to continue growing and to continue creating jobs; secondly, to maintain and improve the Welfare State - pensions, healthcare, education and care of dependent relatives; thirdly, the fight against Jihadi terrorism, and fourthly, the defence of the unity of the nation. I believe that these are the main goals but, aside from these, of course a pact means ceding certain ground.

A.R. Quintana.- In other words, you would obviously have to renounce many of the proposals you have made in recent years. For example, you would not renounce the labour reform even if the rest of the parties wanted to do away with it.

President of the Government.- The labour reform has been one of the laws that has received the most praise from beyond our borders and by the main European institutions, and it has undoubtedly been very important in order, for example, for almost 600,000 jobs to have been created in Spain in 2015. The Labour Force Survey will be published tomorrow, which tells us the number of people in work in Spain, how unemployment is developing and how jobs are developing. To judge by the figures we have seen on National Insurance contributors in recent months, this could be a positive figure.

But, in short, I would not like anyone to turn things around because, if what we want to see is new jobs created, which must continue to be our main national goal, in all sincerity I believe that it would be a mistake. But, as I said…

A.R. Quintana.- But would you be willing to negotiate it? Would you be willing to make a reform?

President of the Government.- That is my obligation. Anyone who… When you have a pact, everyone must give ground. Perhaps, they could give ground on this issue and I would have to give ground on other issues. In other words, this requires a global approach, but we are not yet at the right time to…

A.R. Quintana.- The Citizen Security Act, which has also been strongly questioned, education…

President of the Government.- Yes, yes. Clearly there are laws… The Education Act, yes; but, mind you, we have managed to reduce the school drop-out rate by six points during this term of office and that is very important. That is another of the major challenges for the future: Dual Vocational Training, Vocational Training, adapting what is studied to the demands of the job market. We have some nice challenges ahead and many things can be done.

A.R. Quintana.- If, in the end, Pedro Sánchez does not reach an agreement with Podemos and with all the groups that make up Podemos and which have gone with Podemos to the elections, then perhaps Podemos will also withdraw its support for the Socialist Party, because Pedro Sánchez also has a lot at stake in very important places, on city councils and in autonomous regions.

President of the Government.- The pact that Sánchez is trying to make can be done. That is, the numbers are there. The PSOE plus all the parties that make us Podemos, which are En Marea, Compromís and the version in Catalonia; then with Esquerra Republicana de Cataluña, Convergència, the United Left… The numbers are there with all these parties, but this is unfeasible. You cannot govern with so many parties that are so different and diverse. In other words, this is a government doomed to failure right from the very outset. Moreover, this government would have a minority in the Upper House, because the People's Party has a majority there. They would not be able to do the things that they want to in terms of constitutional reforms because they do not have enough votes. It would be a catastrophe.

Now, regarding what you just said, if there is an agreement at a national level between the People's Party, Ciudadanos and the Socialist Party, this agreement could also affect the regional governments and even the main city councils. The question is to be able to govern calmly in the regional governments and on the main city councils. The question is to offer stability, for example, by approving budgets. And in this case, the People's Party would also be willing to talk about that.

I believe that at this time Spain needs a period with less confrontation and greater consensus. If we achieve that, we send out a very positive message abroad and this would be wonderful for our economy. The best thing that could happen would be to say: in Spain the main parties that have always governed have been capable of reaching an agreement with a new party - Ciudadanos -and that offers stability, security and certainty. And this is even more important because it generates great confidence through the enactment of decrees and laws. And with this national agreement we could also look for some formula to reach understandings, which would be different in each place, in the different public institutions.

A.R. Quintana.- In other words, if the Socialist Party lost the support where it is governing, if it lost the support of Podemos, then the People's Party would be prepared to keep them in power in some way.

President of the Government.- An offer was made not long ago in Valencia in this vein; a very clear offer from our party, which could then be extended throughout Spain.

A.R. Quintana.- Does the possibility exist that, if the People's Party couldn't find support - you have already said that you don't have this for the time being -a third person could appear, and that the King could decide to entrust this third person to form a government?

President of the Government.- The possibility exists, but I believe deeply in democracy and what people vote for is important. Of course, everyone is making up formulas at this time and saying "an agreement between PSOE and Ciudadanos with the PP abstaining", or "an agreement between Ciudadanos and PSOE with Podemos abstaining", or "we are going to change the leader of the first two parties", and the leaders of the third and fourth parties could also be changed. I believe that we should respect the people.

The people have voted, firstly, for the People's Party; secondly, for the Socialist Party; thirdly, for Podemos, and fourthly, for Ciudadanos. And each one had their candidate. Manipulation leads nowhere. There is a country in Europe that has had three consecutive Prime Ministers that have not been elected by anyone. I don't like that model for Spain. I like people to know who they are voting for and why they do this. Because everything else is pure manipulation.

A.R. Quintana.- But in order to achieve stability, the unity of Spain, some of these key points you have put on the table, on which the rest could argue to reach an agreement, if we reach a point in time in which there is no way out of this and the King entrusts Pedro Sánchez with forming a government and if the government with the pro-independence parties and with Podemos, according to you, would not create stability in Spain, would the People's Party be willing to abstain so that the Pedro Sánchez could head up the government?

President of the Government.- Well look, no. Quite frankly, no, because the People's Party has won the elections. Of course, this would go against common sense - appointing Pedro Sánchez, Pablo Iglesias, or Mr Rivera, or anyone else. Just listen, we must respect the people. It would be ironic if the Socialist Party did not receive the support of Podemos and the People's Party had to support it. What book states that the second most voted-for party, which, moreover, has 1.7 million votes and almost seven points less than the leading party should govern? That seems ridiculous to me. We should give some respect for what people voted for. How would you explain to the people who voted for the People's Party that their vote has helped the Socialist Party to power when their votes have won the elections?

A.R. Quintana.- Have you spoken with any of the leading figures in the Socialist Party; for example with Susana Díaz?

President of the Government.- No. I have not spoken with any of the leading figures in the Socialist Party, nor have I spoken with Felipe González because, as I said before, I believe strongly in the rules of the game. That is why I say that whoever wins should govern and coalitions are made by applying common sense. Since I believe in the rules of the game, I respect the Socialist Party, in the same way as I respect the rest of the parties. Pedro Sánchez is the only person I have contacted from the Socialist Party. He is the only person I have spoken with although, as I said earlier, very little.

A.R. Quintana.- He who wins governs is relative because, in the end, the President of the Government directs the Parliament. If the winner does not have enough votes, he who has more "yeas" than "nays" governs.

President of the Government.- Of course.

A.R. Quintana.- This has happened in Portugal, although the President is…

President of the Government.- Yes, but at present, Portugal is the only country in Europe where that is the case. Just look, in the first two or three votes, on very important issues, the Socialist Party has not received the support of the left-wing parties. In Germany, no, that doesn't happen. In none of those countries. That is not happening at the moment in Europe, not even in Greece. Mr Tsipras won in Greece and Mr Tsipras governs, with the support of a right-wing party, by the way.

That is not normal. This has never happened in Spain and in Europe it is only the case in one country, which is Portugal, and we will see what the results of this are in the future.

If, in the end, Ana Rosa, a little bit of common sense is applied and the party governs that has the most support from its people; and if there are coalitions, they are made to generate stability; they are sensible and the people understand them; then this allows the country to be run and to deal with the important problems in Spain, which are unemployment, pensions, healthcare, education and training. That is what a sensible person wants.

A.R. Quintana.- What is happening is that there would seem to be a stalemate. Pedro Sánchez has stated this clearly, "no, no, no; not with Rajoy, not with the People's Party". If that is the only solution, whereby you reach an agreement, we will hold new elections or the Socialist Party will govern with Podemos.

President of the Government.- I said this earlier: the way the numbers are at this time, the Socialist Party can govern with all these groups that we have mentioned or it can govern with the People's Party. The People's Party does not have enough votes, because I am not going to ask for support from either Podemos or from the pro-independence parties. Hence, even if we reached an agreement with Ciudadanos, this would not be enough.

A.R. Quintana.- Have there been any agreements or meetings, maybe not personally with you but between leading figures in your party and in the Socialist Party?

President of the Government.- The only ones I am aware of are those held when deciding the composition of the Board in the Lower House, between the spokesperson of our parliamentary group and the spokesperson of the socialist parliamentary group and with the others, in order to form the Board in the Lower House. And in the Upper House, although we had a majority there, I imagine meetings were also held there. But meetings with people from the Socialist Party by people from my party, other than between Pedro Sánchez and I, none that I am aware of.

A.R. Quintana.- The meeting with the two Hernando's was after constituting the Board; moreover, there were people who saw them there. It is true that they went somewhere where it was very easy to spot them. That was a negotiation, wasn't it?

President of the Government.- No, no, not at all. I am telling you that there haven't been any because the negotiations, logically, in the event of having taken place, would have had to have been initiated by the General Secretary of the PSOE and myself; but the General Secretary of the PSOE does not want to do this. So, there has been absolutely nothing. We have not sued anyone because going and creating problems for others doesn't seem to be the right formula for operating.

A.R. Quintana.- It looks like we are heading for elections then, Mr President of the Government.

President of the Government.- There are three possibilities, which are the same as on 20 December: the government that I propose (People's Party, Socialist Party, Ciudadanos), or an agreement between these three - there are various possible formulas - the second is the agreement between the pro-independence parties, Podemos and PSOE, and the third is holding new elections. Those are the three possible formulas. I wouldn't like to see elections held again. It would be, to a certain extent, a political failure because our people have voted and they then told us "to resolve your problems", and because it would mean a long time without a government that can operate as such; we are an acting government at the moment. But, anyway, if there is no other solution that is what will have to happen.

A.R. Quintana.- And can you see a government with Pedro Sánchez as President of the Government and Pablo Iglesias as Vice-President of the Government, with the Ministries of Home Affairs, Defence, Education and Justice, and Spanish Radio and Television, and I don't know if I have missed anything…

President of the Government.- The CNI [National Intelligence Centre], as well.

A.R. Quintana.- The CNI depends on…

President of the Government.- The Vice-Presidency of the Government.

A.R. Quintana.- Before it depended on the Ministry of Defence, and now on the Vice-Presidency of the Government.

President of the Government.- On the Ministry of the Presidency.

I just don't know. Of course, I am not going to get involved in what others do. Mr Iglesias…

A.R. Quintana.- But, as a Spaniard, or as Leader of the Opposition, in this case?

President of the Government.- It seems ridiculous to me. I am proposing something radically different. Mr Iglesias has made an offer to Mr Sánchez and I am not going to get involved in the reaction from Mr Sánchez, or in anything else, because that is not relevant, but I believe that this is very negative for the general interests of the Spanish people. Of course, I believe it is the worst thing that could happen to Spain in order to consolidate the economic recovery and to create jobs and enjoy economic growth.

A.R. Quintana.- When you heard this, what did you think? That this was something tactical looking to elections or that this was really what Pablo Iglesias wanted? Because on Friday, you put Pedro Sánchez between a rock and a hard place.

President of the Government.- It is very hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes. I imagine that Mr Iglesias would have said that "I want a left-wing government and, as I have 70 seats and 300,000 votes less than the PSOE, I must be Vice-President of the Government". That is what he would have thought. Everyone can think what they want, and Mr Sánchez can accept this or not, and he can offer one reaction or another. I would obviously not accept this under any circumstance. I am proposing quite another thing; I propose a pact which is moderate, based on political realism and common sense.

A.R. Quintana.- This happened on Friday and then Mariano Rajoy held his consultation. This was a very tough Friday. Your next consultation will be with the King on Tuesday, you said. What will you say to him, Mr Rajoy?

President of the Government.- I will listen to the King closely and what I have to say to the King I will say to him alone. Isn't it reasonable…?

A.R. Quintana.- And if the King entrusts you again to attend the investiture… Couldn't this happen?

President of the Government.- Allow me… Yes, there are even those who are telling the King to do that. While everyone here is telling the King what he has to do, allow me not to tell the King what he has to do; nor am I going out and telling everyone what I am going to say to the King, among other things, because I don't know what he will say to me.

A.R. Quintana.- Both the spokespersons for the PP and for the Socialist Party have spoken about this as well. Is that slighting the King?

President of the Government.- The best example that I got things right was in the statements from these two important leaders of the Socialist Party, who have been saying for a fortnight now that I must attend the investiture and that, if I don't get enough support, then they will attend it. The problem is that I can only achieve the support if they give it to me. Hence, that is the panorama we are facing. And they are now continuing to say to the King that the King must once again propose that I attend the investiture.

But, I repeat, the clearest thing is what we have seen when these two gentlemen say that I must attend, a precise demonstration that I must not attend. And I have explained this very well, and everyone understands this - the investiture is to elect the President of the Government but in that situation it was impossible…, it wasn't that it was difficult and there was a 90% chance, a 70% chance or a 60% chance; it was impossible for me to be elected as President of the Government. So, it made no sense for me to attend. What I don't understand is why these leaders are so set on me attending. They can attend with Podemos, which is what they are up to at the moment.

A.R. Quintana.- Luena says, "either he goes or he will have to go".

President of the Government.- Just look, what Luena says… He is fully entitled to say what he deems fit and opportune.

A.R. Quintana.- And I believe that Pedro Sánchez has said the same, hasn't he? There are also members of the People's Party who would like to see you go, aren't there?

President of the Government.- If there are, they haven't said that to me. I believe that the People's Party is a very experienced party. We have been in existence for 40 years. We have got off base, we have had some good results and won elections, but we have also lost many elections. We are a party which has someone everywhere flying a flag, the flag with their own ideas, in what they believe in. We have been through a lot.

In the last term of office, which was probably the most difficult since 1977, we were punished harshly. We have been the target of great criticism, but we have managed to preserve, and maintain unity and, in the end… And I am incredibly grateful, because these were four very tough years. I have personally been vilified but, in the end, more than 7 million Spaniards have placed their trust in us yet again.

Now we have seen leaders of other parties here. Everyone is talking at the moment and, in the end, it is right to argue this. If they say, "you must attend…" why would I attend if I don't have enough votes to be elected?

A.R. Quintana.- But the day before you didn't have enough either and yet you were prepared to attend.

President of the Government.- No.

A.R. Quintana.- What has changed? Or weren't you prepared to attend?

President of the Government.- Well, something significant has changed, which is what Mr Iglesias said. Of course, today Mr Iglesias has made him an offer and at this time Mr Sánchez has a much easier chance of attending the investiture than me, because he has a clear offer from Podemos to go and negotiate and that means he will have a great deal more seats than the People's Party. As I have said on many occasions, we cannot head up the government without some kind of understanding with the PSOE.

Hence, I believe that everyone understands this and this happens everywhere around the world. Who in their right mind would think of going to Parliament with the intention of forming a government when they know that it is impossible to form one? It makes no sense. So, this is a game to see who is the cleverest, where one speaks, another one says something, the first one says something again and another tells a tale from one to another. I have tried to explain to you some very sensible things today: we have 123 seats, we believe that a good government is with these three parties and we still have time to do this. Now, if others prefer to go with Podemos and the other parties, that is under their own responsibility. They are entitled to do so, but I believe that this is very negative for the general interests of the Spanish people.

A.R. Quintana.- By the way, there is another controversy today: when the seats were assigned to Podemos, which has 69 representatives, they were sent up into the gods. What do you think about that?

President of the Government.- I have indeed just seen this mess now. Of course, here we have controversies over where people sit. I called my spokesperson and he said to me that, when the Board was negotiated, the PSOE proposed that the MPs for Podemos should be the last to be located - I don't even know where they have been put.

A.R. Quintana.- Right up at the top, distributed…

President of the Government.- The purple ones?

A.R. Quintana.- Yes, the purple ones, which then continue on the left, behind Ciudadanos. They feel… In all truth, they are in a location… They are not the place that… I understand that Podemos are angry, don't you?

President of the Government.- Yes. This was a proposal made to us by the Socialist Party and which we accepted within the global negotiation proposal by the Board, but this wasn't something that we thought up. I obviously…

A.R. Quintana.- But no-one wants to say whose idea it was, because some are saying that this was Celia Villalobos' idea.

President of the Government.- No, the proposal was not made by the Board but by the parliamentary groups. The spokesperson for my group told me yesterday - you will appreciate that I was not where the people were sitting - that the proposal had been made by the Socialist Party, and that they reiterated this yesterday.

A.R. Quintana- That's where the heart of the matter lies. Pablo Iglesias has just spoken about this on Onda Cero. From what Pablo Iglesias has just said, it would seem they are not in major talks with the Socialist Party. Pablo Iglesias has said that perhaps they would prefer to ally themselves with you and you say that perhaps they would prefer to ally themselves with Podemos.

President of the Government.- They are clearly not speaking with me. But, as I said, the Socialist Party must decide, because their 90 seats give them the chance to do so and, furthermore, obliges them to do so, and they must decide - they either go with Podemos and the pro-independence parties or they go with the proposal that I made. It is that simple but, for the time being, I have the feeling that they do not have their criteria clear.

A.R. Quintana.- Have you spoken with Mr Puigdemont now, following that joke phone call?

President of the Government.- No. I spoke with his double, the imposter who called me by phone. But, just look, that tale was very interesting, because it meant that certain people could discover certain things. They said to me "that Mr Rajoy does not want to speak with Mr Puigdemont" Well I was talking with someone who I thought was Puigdemont and I said to him, "I will call you on Monday and we can meet on Monday or Tuesday. In other words, that we would meet 24, 48 or 72 hours after he called me, which is the truth. But he hasn't called me.

A.R. Quintana.- Despite you having a very free agenda?

President of the Government.- I don't have the same agenda now as before this was an acting government. At present, we cannot pass laws, we cannot pass… We can only undertake activities relating to the normal functioning of the State. So, logically, I have a lighter workload than normal, which was obviously about 14 hours a day before.

A.R. Quintana.- From everything we have talked about, a controversy has sprung up on Twitter now - my colleagues have just told me this - that I missed. I didn't understand things that way, but I would like you to clarify this for the people that are… When I asked you if this is the first time that a party has been charged, some people, many people, understood that you said that you were not aware that your party had been charged with anything. I didn't understand it that way, but could you clarify this for the people who understood it that way.

President of the Government.- In the court order, according to what I was told yesterday, it doesn't state that; but I don't know. We know that the manager has been summoned regarding the issue of the hard drives of the computers that were wiped clean. But I am not aware that this is the case because, moreover, among other things, he cannot be "imputado" because the figure of a charge like that does not exist anymore.

However, just look, one of the reforms we made…

A.R. Quintana.- Under investigation then.

President of the Government.- … was that of the liability of political parties. I don't know because I have not seen the court order. I cannot tell you with any precision.

A.R. Quintana.- The conclusion I reach from this…, and what is important to all of us, the Spanish people, regarding what is going to happen, if a government will be formed, if new elections will be held…, would you be prepared to sit down and openly negotiate with Pedro Sánchez, with Albert Rivera, about the five key pillars of national security, unity and the rest? Would you be prepared to discuss this, to debate this and to amend this?

President of the Government.- Absolutely. That is what pacts are. Many things would need to be agreed: firstly, if they form part of the government or not; secondly, how long would the term of office last; thirdly, what are the priority reforms…

A.R. Quintana.- A short term of office?

President of the Government.- That depends. I am always in favour of terms of office lasting for four years, because the people vote you in for four years and because it is good to have some rules to the game and for everyone to respect them. But we can speak about all of this; now, as I said before, what I am not prepared to talk about is the unity of Spain, the equality of all Spaniards, sovereignty, the fight against terrorism or our membership of the EU and the Euro project. I think that we can speak about anything else; then, of course, these discussions are not easy but, of course, whilst you always have the general interests of the Spanish people as your guide.

A.R. Quintana.- And what are you going to do so that Pedro Sánchez sits down at this negotiating table if he doesn't want to? Will you call him again?

President of the Government.- I can't do anything; it doesn't even make sense to do that. For the time being, he prefers to reach an understanding with Podemos and I must respect that. That is, he prefers to reach an understanding with Podemos and not with the People's Party, which is the most voted-for party with more than 7 million votes. Listen, we are a party that is a member of the European People's Party, we have governed in Spain, we are the party in government and we are a serious party. But we have to respect his intentions.

A.R. Quintana.- Mr Rajoy, what happened yesterday… We started speaking about yesterday's corruption, about this case, albeit a case from last year; nonetheless, yesterday some 30 people were arrested, many people were charged and many properties were searched. In some way people can say to you, "I am not going to sit down with Mr Rajoy, because you and your party represent corruption", can't they?

President of the Government.- Yes, but I am not going to say to Mr Sánchez that I won't sit down with him because of the problem with the layoff plans in Andalusia, nor has Ciudadanos said to the President of the Regional Government of Andalusia that it won't sit down with them because of the layoff plans. What we all need to do now is to be more effective, emphatic and unwavering against those people that commit acts of corruption. That is what we need to do and try to avoid this in the future. Because, if we take the position of "I exclude", "I say", I remove", then unfortunately, in all parties…

A.R. Quintana.- And what will the limits be? Throw someone out when they are under investigation? Not allow them…? What limits would the People's Party impose?

President of the Government.- I am in favour… It depends on each case. In principle, we set the criterion as being the commencement of the oral hearing, but it depends on the case. Because, in reality, there are often people who are reported on a great deal in the media and then it turns out that they haven't done anything, they are not even called to give testimony or obviously sentenced, or anything else. There are cases which are clear while there are others that are unclear, but I believe that any final ejection from the party should take place at the start of an oral hearing.

A.R. Quintana.- Perhaps if you had been quicker to respond back then to fighting corruption or to eject those people involved in corruption cases, for example in the "Bárcenas Affair", do you not think that we would not be where we are now? Do you think you might not have lost so many seats and so many followers?

President of the Government.- I believe that this hurt us greatly, because they were very striking cases, which occupied a lot of media time, and this was absolutely reprehensible conduct. It did us a lot of harm. We have tried to eject all those people guilty of this conduct; we have passed, as I mentioned earlier, many laws and I, of course, am of the firm conviction that, when these cases occur… I said this yesterday in the case of Valencia to our Deputy Secretary of the organisation: for the time being, suspend absolutely everyone and then we will see what has happened, because a gagging order has been imposed and we don't know exactly what all the charges are.

A.R. Quintana.- Who will become President of the Government?

President of the Government.- It is difficult to predict at this time, but I would like it to be me again, because I have the feeling that we have run things well, although there is still a lot to do. I have said, and I am absolutely convinced, that if we persevere with the policies of recent years, 2 million jobs can be created, 500,000 a year over the next four years, the same as happened in 2015 and 2014.

A.R. Quintana.- When is the right time to attend the investiture session? What does that depend on? Because now we have a second round of talks and, if you do not attend the investiture session, Pedro Sánchez may stand. When would be the right time? If Pedro Sánchez fails? Or could Albert Rivera stand; I don't know.

President of the Government.- When the King says so. It is the King who says who will stand at the investiture session.

A.R. Quintana.- And how long will this period last?

President of the Government.- There are no deadlines yet. From the time a candidate to the investiture loses a vote of confidence and if in the following two months no-one is elected as President of the Government, then new elections will be held. But the term for someone to stand to be invested does not exist. No term is set out in the Constitution.

A.R. Quintana.- If not, we could see new elections. As has been proposed here, even the possibility of forming a coalition government is absolutely open to anything, isn't it?

President of the Government.- To everything.

A.R. Quintana.- To pacts, to abstentions, to non-abstentions, to positive voting, to a coalition government…

President of the Government.- That is what has been instructed by the Spanish people, you must understand that. And to reach an understanding you must open up your horizons, we are obliged to do that and that is democratic. Now is the true time for politics, for serious issues, for what is important.

A.R. Quintana.- Do you expect to receive any more bad news in the coming days?

President of the Government.- Quite frankly, I don't know. Let's hope not.

A.R. Quintana.- And any good news?

President of the Government.- Let's hope so; I hope that tomorrow's Labour Force Survey says that jobs are being created in Spain.

A.R. Quintana.- Mariano Rajoy, Mr President of the Government, thank you very much for having come here this morning. Now, everything that we have commented on here will be widely debated and we will now go to the news when… Aah! I thought that this interview was going to be shorter and it is almost ten already.

President of the Government.- How long has it lasted?

A.R. Quintana.- About an hour. It is almost ten o'clock. We haven't looked at our watches.

President of the Government.- It seemed short to me.

A.R. Quintana.- Thank you.