Interview with the President of the Government on "Las Mañanas" programme, Radio Nacional de España

Alfredo Menéndez: This interview that is about to begin with the President of the Government Mariano Rajoy is being broadcast on Radio Nacional, Radio 5, Radio Exterior, Channel 1 of Televisión Española, Canal 24 Horas of TVE and RTVE.es. We are at the Moncloa Palace, where we will have our talk over the coming minutes.

Mr. Rajoy, how are you? Good morning.

President of the Government: Good morning. Delighted to be here.

A. Menéndez: The last time I was here you had stopped smoking a week earlier. I was here in November 2013. How are you getting on with that? As it happens, that's the same way we started off then.

President of the Government: I'm doing well and I'd recommend it. I stopped on 13 October, 2013 and I seem to remember that the interview we had was in November; in other words, only a few days later, that's true. I'm keeping it up. It's already been almost a year and a half, it will be that on the 13th of this month and I think I've overcome the worst of this addiction.

A. Menéndez: Not so much as one cigarette?

President of the Government: No, not one.

A. Menéndez: Not one, or anything else?

President of the Government: Absolutely nothing. If you give up, you give up, because if not, then you're not giving up.

A. Menéndez: Did you have a rest during Holy Week? Were you able to relax?

President of the Government: I was able to rest, while keeping an eye at all times on what's going on, as is my duty.

A. Menéndez: In Doñana, down south, wasn't it?

President of the Government: Indeed, that's where I was.

A. Menéndez: You were lucky with the weather.

President of the Government: The weather has been very good in almost the whole of Spain, because it's been sunny and it hasn't been hot. We believe that the owners of cafes, bars, restaurants, hotels or hostels will be happy because there was a large movement of people.

A. Menéndez: There is one item of news that will take us immediately to a discussion about these unemployment figures we have just learned; and there is another more tragic and sadder item that takes us to Morocco, whith those two Spanish climbers who died and a survivor who managed to climb out of the gorge on his own and who was part of the expedition, that has made headlines in recent days. Of course, it is a very sad way to start today in the day.

President of the Government: It is very sad, of course. We are talking about two people who have lost the most important thing that we have as human beings, which is our life: José Antonio Martínez Jiménez and Gustavo Virués. And then there is some good news, if you can talk about good news when discussing these things, which is that Juan Bolivar has been saved and, I am told, is OK now.

It was an accident in an area that was very difficult to access. All these rescue operations are difficult. Recently we have unfortunately been through what happened in the Alps with the plane crash.

The Government and the Government authorities whose responsibility this is, made a rescue team available for the Moroccan authorities as soon as we learned what had happened. I mean, on their side, the Moroccan authorities have made a great effort, and have contributed all their knowledge and understanding. As soon as they asked us for assistance, members of the National Police and Civil Guard went there. Unfortunately, we couldn't achieve everything we all hoped for, which was to keep these people alive, both José Antonio Martínez Jiménez and Gustavo Virués; but I'm afraid that is the way things turned out.

What I would like to do here is give some words of encouragement to their families. I know it must be very tough for them now, very hard. I imagine myself in their position, as would anyone, and this is the worst thing that can happen to a human being. But they must take courage; they must try to be strong and brave, to look ahead and to remember how many good memories their dead relatives certainly left them with. So, may they rest in peace.

A. Menéndez: I understand, Mr President of the Government, that this is not the time to bring up complaints against the Moroccan Government or about possible delays when authorising the entry of Spanish agents.

President of the Government: The fact is that when you're not there, it's very difficult to comment. Of course, the Moroccan authorities were from the start in direct contact with the authorities at the Ministry for Home Affairs and with officials from the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. We told them that we could send a rescue team as soon as they asked. They understood, and there is no reason to think otherwise, that they could do it on their own. It wasn't easy, because these questions never are. When the time came, they asked us for help and received it immediately; but today I prefer to recall the goodwill and the spirit of cooperation shown by the Government of Morocco and of all those responsible at the ministerial departments to which I have referred.

A. Menéndez: Normally on the day the unemployment figures are released, Mr Rajoy, one of the jobs of journalists is to seek reactions. I now have the best of all, because I'm facing the President of the Government, with figures on the total registered unemployed in March and on the people registered in the Social Security system, which we have just learned and which were broadcast on the 9 o'clock morning news. They show that March has been good. I don't know if we can call it historic, or what your opinion would be.

President of the Government: I have to say, quite frankly, I am very happy about the unemployment and Social Security figures we've had for March; I repeat, very happy, because there are over 160,000 more people registered with the Social Security, which is the best figure in all the historical series of those registered with the Social Security system. There has never been a March like it. And the registered unemployment figure is also sensational, because 60,000 people have found a job, have left unemployment, and it is also the best figure recorded in history.

So I am very happy. And I would like to say two things: I'm happy for the people and I am happy because this affects the economy of the country, welfare, wealth and revenues. But I'm happy, first of all, for all those who have found a job or have managed to join the Social Security system, which is the same thing; but I'm also happy because this is a fact that conveys a well-founded hope of finding a job for those who still do not have one. That is the most important thing. Unemployment has been falling and the number of people registered in the Social Security system has been growing for some time; so although there are many people that have still not managed to, these figures say: "I can do it as well."

So the figures are very good. Note that, when we arrived in government, unemployment was rising by 9% per year and it is now falling by 7.2%. That is a very important fact. The trend has changed and now what remains is to continue the effort to achieve the target I set not so long ago. More than 500,000 people this year will be able to start work and last year it was just over 400,000, so one million people will have found a job between 2014 and 2015. And if we continue in the same way over the next four-year term of office, we can reach the figure of 20 million people in work, which we believe is very important, because that will also serve to increase the Social Security revenues, improve pensions, the government will collect more and services will improve.

So we are on the right track, but we must persevere, because there are still many people out of work; but, again, these data give them a well-founded hope that they too can find a job soon.

A. Menéndez: Do these figures allow you to maintain the calculation of three million jobs in six years?

President of the Government: Absolutely. This year, the February Social Security figures were, I seem to recall - I seem to recall, I'm not sure - about 90,000 more people in the Social Security system; the March figure, 160,000; I repeat, this is the best figure in history, and for the first time in many years, more people found work in January, February and March. January, February and March, especially January and February, are traditionally, together with October, the worst months for finding a job. Well, for the first time in years the first three months of 2015 are positive, which, again, makes the Government, and me in particular, very happy, while being aware that we have to keep working very hard.

A. Menéndez: We should bear in mind that these figures include Holy Week, which has just passed, and a part of the debate also tends to revolve around the quality of employment generated. Is a job of a lower quality than before the crisis better or not

President of the Government: Two things. We are at Holy Week, but these are technical criteria. Normally factors such as Easter are taken into account, and we call the figures "seasonally adjusted registrations", meaning regardless of the season. And the figures are very good too: there are 100,000 more people. So the figures from a quantitative point of view, in other words the number of people who have managed to register with the Social Security system, are very positive.

Job quality. The type of job that has risen most this month has been permanent contracts. We have to continue along that path. Approximately 75% of people working in Spain have a permanent contract and another 25% do not. It is true that there are some jobs that are very difficult to make permanent, because they are seasonal jobs; for example, there are many of this kind in hotel and catering and also in agriculture. But the goal is to have increasingly more permanent contracts and, above all, to have more people in work.

A. Menéndez: At the end of this month, and here we're closing the economic section, we have to send the Spanish Government's forecasts to Brussels. Can we expect any surprises with respect to growth, Mr. Rajoy?

President of the Government: When we approved the Budget, which is when the level of economic growth is determined, in other words by what economic activity will grow, we said: next year economic growth will be 2%: I recall that 2014 was the first year, after many years of negative growth, in which we grew; we grew by 1.4%, but 2015 will be better: 2%. What happened is that since then in the State of the Nation debate, we believed growth would be higher, at 2.4%. I said so during the State of the Nation debate and the Bank of Spain said that we would grow by 2.8%. That is the forecast of the Bank of Spain and indeed that would be a magnificent level of growth; it would, without any doubt, be the highest in the European Union.

We have to send this before the end of April. We still have not finalised it, but we will probably put the forecast economic growth at above 2.4%. And of course, what I have to say is that these more than 500,000 jobs I referred to that were going to be created in 2015, will really be created. And now what we're going to work on is to exceed the forecasts to try to create even more.
At this point in time we are enthusiastic. The latest figures released, not only for economic growth but ... For example, now in the construction sector the number of permits to build new houses in January has grown for the first time in many years. That's important, it's important that this sector is beginning to recover. And car sales in the first quarter of this year have also been very good, consumption is improving ... In other words, there are a set of positive data telling us that the economy is going to grow and jobs will be created; but, as so often happens in life, we must act wisely, be cautious and not get carried away.

The Government must therefore continue to take firm steps forward, as must the autonomous regions; and I believe that if we continue like this, Spain can this year be the European Union country - that undoubtedly creates most jobs, no doubt about that - with the biggest economic growth, which, coming from where we came, from being among the bottom of the class to take this leap forward, is very positive. But again, while these employment figures I have mentioned are yet to become a reality, there will still be a hard battle to be fought in our country.

A. Menéndez: There are fewer than fifty days to the next date with the polls, the regional and municipal elections on 24 May. With what spirit are the Government and your party facing these upcoming elections?

President of the Government: With a spirit of optimism and the goal of winning them. Our goal is to be the leading political force in municipal elections and regional elections. In fact, tomorrow I have a National Executive Committee meeting to kick off the process. They have already been called for 24 May. We believe that those in the People's Party (Partido Popular) who have taken up the responsibility of government in local councils and autonomous regions over this period have worked hard, and have done so at the most difficult of times.

Really, being in government during this period we were faced with has not been easy, as we all know. It was a time when Spain was about to be bailed out, it was a time when Spain was on the verge of bankruptcy, we were at the point of not being able to finance ourselves... Thanks to Spanish society understanding that there were things that had to be done, we are recovering. I think they have governed well and this, together with what the People's Party has done in being able to overcome this serious economic crisis, will mean that we can ask for trust from those who once offered it to us; and we hope that many Spanish people who trusted us before will do so again.

So we are in good spirits and with a goal that is once more to be the major political force in Spain.

A. Menéndez: Now let me move on to issues of your manifesto; but as you have already mentioned tomorrow's National Executive Committee meeting, is this the right time for something like self-criticism or to send out a message of unity to the party or to some leaders who may also be speaking these days, and I'm sure you have read them, about the risk of unity in the People's Party?. Is this the time to launch these messages?

President of the Government: No. It's time to prepare for elections. Of course, I will try to explain to the National Executive Committee that we have a common goal as a party, that goal being the elections, and we have a common goal as a country, which is the goal I have just referred to: we must continue to create jobs and we must continue to improve economic growth. Those are the two goals for this year 2015, which is very much an election year. That affects the party, but the Government has to keep working at the same time on what affects all the Spanish people, which are the economy, job creation and employment.

Of course, I will ask for the maximum effort, maximum dedication and, of course, maximum unity within the party. I have to say that this is a party that has traditionally been a united party - and one that has operated well. There can always be disagreements on some issues or others; but I am certainly happy with how the party is operating and the unity that is being maintained right now.

A. Menéndez: What would you say, for example, to a PP voter who believes that the party is not in the best of health; a voter or a leader who may have that idea?

President of the Government: What would I tell them? That the People's Party has once more drawn the short straw. Yes, we took up government and remember: there was a public deficit of 9%; several years of negative economic growth; unemployment was increasing every day; everyone was demanding that we ask for a bailout, like other countries in the European Union - it was very hard for them, but we managed to resist a bailout-; our risk premium was sky high; nobody could access finance and the money they gave us was at an astronomical price.

All this has been resolved and it was certainly not easy. Of course, it forced us to take decisions, many of them tough, many contrary to what we had said, many that we did not like. Some of them we are already trying to correct. We had to raise taxes because the alternative was bankruptcy and already this year 2015 we have cut them and in 2016 we will again cut income tax and again cut corporate tax.

So, I will tell them that we are aware we have had to take difficult decisions in a difficult time. This obviously leads to wear and tear and has its political costs, but we believe we are in a position to recover our place. We ask them to put their trust in us again and not to forget that the main goal of this term of office was to overcome the crisis, restore growth and job creation, and we are already well on the way achieving all of those.

A. Menéndez: Does it bother you that there are colleagues or party leaders who send these messages that, at best, divert attention from what you are telling me, what will the National Executive Committee tell them tomorrow?

President of the Government: It is best to talk about the things that matter to the Spanish people as a whole. I always say the same thing: whether we look at what sociological studies say or if we ignore the sociological studies and listen to what people say on the street, people's major concern is their lives, their small problems; small or large. The major concern for people is to have a job; it is to have a slightly higher salary; is for pensions not to fall but indeed to rise, and as much as possible; it is that if you go to the doctor, you are seen to quickly and effectively; it is that the educational system should work well ... Those are people's major concerns and that is reasonable; we are human beings after all.

Entering into internal debates initiated by different people does not really contribute anything: But, as I have said, this is not the major concern that either the President of the Government or the President of the People's Party has at this moment in time. My great concern is that we should be able - with regards to what I've been talking about all this term of office - to maintain the pace of growth in the economy and employment, and to achieve that major goal of one million jobs in the last two years of this term of office, and then reach twenty million jobs.

A. Menéndez: The election manifesto for these local council and regional elections, of which we are receiving brief sketches, which we have also reported on for Radio Nacional. Is a bonus for candidates in the local council and regional elections the cut in the VAT on culture that is included in this programme? Could that be how the land lies, Mr Rajoy, as well as other things?

President of the Government: The VAT on culture, as you well know, is not exactly a decision taken by a local council or autonomous region. In that respect there are important taxes such as inheritance tax, donations tax and property transfer tax, where they can act. The VAT on culture is a central government decision.

When we entered government, the difference between what we collected and what we spent was 90 billion euros. That's a staggering 15 trillion pesetas, which had to be obtained from the market. There came a time when the markets were not lending to us, when, if they don't lend to you, you can say, "I'm going to spend this, that which I haven't got". It was this that forced us to make tough decisions, such as raising taxes, such as freezing some salaries and such as implementing structural reforms; but that is what has now allowed us to emerge.

We have raised taxes but now, as I have said before, we are beginning to cut them. Already this year income tax has been, and corporate tax has been cut, and we have been able to reduce some Social Security contributions: the first 500 euros of wages are no longer subject to contributions. And the party's philosophy, its approach, what I believe in, is that the lower the taxes, the better.

In the cultural field, there are some products that have a VAT rate of 4% and others 21%. For example, books have a VAT rate of 4%. If you buy a book you pay 4% and if you enter a museum, which is a cultural activity, you also pay 4%, not 21%. There are other activities, above all cinema, which have a rate of 21%. No decision has been taken so far; but we must see how the incomes go this year and, to the extent that the incomes do better and activity improves, we will try, as we have always done, to lower taxes.

You ask me: do you have a date set? I don't at this point in time.

A. Menéndez: And do you have a date planned for the general election?

President of the Government: No, but in the normal course of events the general election... The last was held on 20 November 2011 and it would be normal for it to be held around that date. I believe that the term of office should be completed and I believe that you should only call early elections for two reasons: one, because of a purely technical issue, in other words an advance of a couple of months, which is not important and not really an advance; and another when a government does not have enough votes to carry out its projects in the House. Otherwise, there is no reason.

This year, for example, here in Spain, I believe it is crazy to have had regional elections in Andalusia recently, when they could have been made to coincide with the regional elections across the whole of Spain and the local elections, which are in May; then elections have been called for September in Catalonia and then there is the general election. In other words, more than two elections in a year is already a lot in my opinion.

A. Menéndez: In any case, is there no possibility of stretching out the call for elections until January? Or if there is a possibility of stretching, would you have that intention?

President of the Government: Actually, I really haven't considered it. I haven't considered it, I haven't studied it, nor have I asked anyone to study it. In the normal course of events the election would be held towards the end of the year, at a similar date to the last elections. But, I repeat, no decision has been made, except the decision that elections will be held at that approximate time.

A. Menéndez: But there is a decision to have Mariano Rajoy as People's Party candidate for President of the Government.

President of the Government: That is something the party will decide; but of course, my wish is to try to be candidate again and to try to be President of the Government again. As I said before, they have been enormously difficult years; but the worst thing that can happen to us right now in Spain is to change economic policy, that would be the worst thing. The worst thing that could happen would be a return to the economic policy of the years 2008-2011, which left Spain on the brink of bankruptcy and with a truly dramatic number of people out of work. That's the worst thing that could happen and, of course, I also do not think it would be very good to opt for parties whose ideology is absolutely unknown.

What matters most to me now is that we can maintain longer the economic policy that has been implemented and that has worked in our country.

A. Menéndez: And would it be your last term of office, Mr. Rajoy? Are you in favour of limiting the terms of office of Presidents of the Government to two? I know that the issue has been half debated at some congress, but no conclusion has ever been reached.

President of the Government: There are many models for this in many places. The European model is not to limit terms of office, for example; in the U.S. terms are limited and in Mexico, Colombia and in most Latin American countries terms are limited. In Europe I think there is no country where there is a limit to a term of office, none: there is none in Portugal; there is none in Germany, where Ms Merkel won her third term two years ago back in 2013; nor is there one in the UK where Mr Cameron is now bidding for his second term, and what's more they are for five years ... I think there is in France, but that is for President of the Republic; but I am not absolutely sure that there is.

In other words, it is not a European tradition, but anyway it is not an issue that we should worry too much about right now.

A. Menéndez: There's still a long way to go.

President of the Government: There's still a long way to go.

A. Menéndez: You mentioned other parties and we are now entering, for example, the area of opinion polls, that seem to suggest that the People's Party would be forced to reach agreements, not only in local councils or autonomous regions, but even with respect to the general election, with other parties and I'll mention some of them; for example Ciudadanos. Has the PP chosen the wrong strategy with respect to Ciudadanos and will it tone down its criticism a little now, or not?

President of the Government: This is the first time I've been asked about Ciudadanos.

A. Menéndez: It's your lucky day!

President of the Government: It's the first time. I have to say that the People's Party is concerned about itself. I have to say that I am concerned, above all, about the Government and about my work as President of the Government, which is what the Spanish people have demanded of me; and then, of course, I also care about what I have to do as party president.

The People's Party is a party with a commitment to being a majority party and a commitment to government. We are a party of government and want to govern. We are doing so in Spain, in the autonomous regions and the local councils. Our objective is therefore to reach terms with the people; this is what we have always done. Then, all the other political forces, old, new... everyone votes for whoever they consider right and suitable, and must be respected.

I respect all political parties as long as they have the support of many citizens who see things differently from how I see them, and have a perfect right to do so. But right now the only concern of the People's Party is to explain properly what we have done over this time and warn that things are not yet fully complete; we have to keep doing a lot in the future. That being said, what others do, if it contributes positive things to Spanish society, is welcome, and if contributes negative things, I hope it will not be taken too much into account by the Spanish people.

A. Menéndez: But let me insist: do you think there has been a mistake in criticising Ciudadanos and will the tone be lowered, or has there been none?

President of the Government: In politics, whenever there is a confrontation ... I do not usually do it, but normally, above all when there are election campaigns ... Look at the things the PSOE party says to me; it says some truly extraordinary things. It even criticizes the economic policy. I can't imagine they would want to return to the previous one, when 3,400,000 people lost their jobs. Look at the things that, for example, the PSOE tells me, let alone the things said by Izquierda Unida (United Left) and other political parties.

Those debates that occur are part of politics; but people here, fortunately, make up a mature society, Spanish people are very intelligent and are well capable of separating the grain from the chaff. They know what is important from and what is less so in the classic political debate. I always like to go for what is important and not go into the details.

Again, all political parties seem very respectable to me; but I look after mine, and you can be sure that that is quite enough.

A. Menéndez: As you mentioned the PSOE without mentioning its current secretary general, who is Pedro Sánchez, do you miss my namesake Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba?

President of the Government: If I say I miss him, Mr Pérez Rubalcaba will get annoyed, so I won't say anything except that I had, at the time I was President of the Government, good relations with him. We had some tough debates, especially in Parliament, which is very normal and occurs in all countries, as long they are based on respect for people. He was a person with a great political track record and a great experience. He felt he had to leave and I respect him, just as I respect all others.

A. Menéndez: But is it harder to reach agreements with the PSOE of Pedro Sánchez than with the PSOE of Pérez Rubalcaba, or just as difficult?

President of the Government: With the PSOE of Pedro Sánchez we have also reached an agreement, he asked and I had no problem with it. He asked me for an agreement on jihadist terrorism and I said yes, because I think it is one of the most important issues for not only Spain, which it is of course, but also for the rest of Europe and the world. Look at the atrocities we have seen in Tunisia and what we have now seen in Kenya, something truly dramatic: more than 150 young people killed by barbarism and fanaticism.

We reached an agreement on this subject and provided we can reach understandings on issues of State, on issues that have no business being part of political debate, I am in favour of doing so and of doing so with anyone.

A. Menéndez: And about another party, Podemos. Do you think that the Podemos phenomenon is losing steam, as suggested by the surveys that are being published?

President of the Government: I don't know; but basically, Podemos is a very extreme left-wing party. It has picked up many votes from Izquierda Unida and from many other far-left parties. Actually, what has happened in Europe over recent months, and even years, is that the economic crisis has led to a lot of people look beyond the traditional parties for someone to support, thinking that political parties that did not exist and that have emerged out of nowhere could solve the problems of the people.

In fact, note that in France the European elections were won by the far right party of Le Pen, who has now emerged above the socialists in the departmental elections. In the UK the elections were won not by the traditional Conservative or Labour parties, but by the anti-European party, UKIP. In Italy, there is Mr Grillo, who was a man far removed from the world of politics, a comedian, and he also eventually became the second biggest political force. In Greece, we have seen what happened with Tsipras. But in Spain, in fact, in the last elections the PP and PSOE were first and second, in the European and other elections.

I believe that being in government is very difficult, is it not? I can assure you that is the case, and I have had the opportunity to do so a number of times and in different posts. It is very difficult. In contrast, talking and commenting I can also tell you are much easier, especially when you do not have the responsibility to take decisions. And then everything that appears new is given the benefit of the doubt: well, these people in Podemos are going to set the world to rights; Ciudadanos, too; before that, UPyD...

But I can assure you being in government is very difficult. The People's Party has been in Spanish public life for over thirty years. It has had good results and bad results. But I think you can present our track record to the people as a party which, when times are tough, when times are difficult, when the way forward is not clear, you can trust in it.

A. Menéndez: I can't resist asking you: do you know Pablo Iglesias personally? Have you ever talked with him?

President of the Government: Well, no. The truth is I do not know him, nor have I spoken with him. No, never. We have not had a chance to meet.

A. Menéndez: I say this because, surely, in Parliament, given the opinion polls as they are, you will see each other starting in November.

President of the Government: Well, yes; but so far, the truth is I have not met him anywhere. It's a little curious, but true. He is in the European Parliament and then we probably frequent different places.

A. Menéndez: But if he asked for an interview, would there be any problem? I mean through the usual channels.

President of the Government: I talk to everyone.

A. Menéndez: I want to ask you about three autonomous regions. One, Andalusia. A round of bilateral contacts has begun on the part of the aspiring President of the region, Susana Díaz. What should the People's Party be doing in the investiture session? Is abstaining an option? What should it do?

President of the Government: What the People's Party has to do is what the People's Party of Andalusia decides; but the important thing is not what the People's Party has to do but what Ms Díaz offers.

I said at one time I thought it was a mistake to call elections early, because Ms Díaz had a majority. That's what I said before: if you have a majority, why call elections more than one year early? We can imagine it was to win an absolute majority and not have to reach agreements. She didn't win it and we are now in a worse situation than before: she can reach an agreement with any of the three parties but of course the initiative belongs to her.

So when Ms Díaz calls it, what the People's Party has to do is do what it has done: go, sit and listen to what its offer with respect to government is, which is what she will do; and, given that, what it is that she proposes to us or others, and then the decision has to be taken.

But as Ms Díaz is the main political force, she has the legitimate right to try to form a government and to form a government she has to deal with one of the other three. She must also decide who to ask to abstain, who to ask for support, what kind of understanding to reach; and I guess that once she chooses who she wants to reach an agreement with, she will have to say, "this is my programme for government ". And the chosen party will have to say: "I agree with this, I don't agree with that, we can reach an understanding or we can't reach an understanding." That's how democratic systems work.

Therefore, what is urgent now in Andalusia is that she should call the political groups and explain exactly what she wants to do; that is, if her goal is to create jobs. I believe that you can create many more jobs in Andalusia than have been created. If we achieve those twenty million, over 571,000 jobs more could be created with the Government's policies alone; that is the calculation we have made. But with good policies you could achieve that there. That is what the priority should be in my opinion.

But, I repeat, that is up to her. The People's Party can't determine a position, without knowing what the government's programme will be and without anyone having asked anything from us. It can listen carefully to what Ms Díaz says and as long as she says nothing the People's Party remains the opposition.

A. Menéndez: But would you like the People's Party in Andalusia to abstain, to respect the idea that the governing party should be the most voted party?

President of the Government: What the People's Party can guarantee is that the People's Party, which is the second biggest party, will not try to form a government with anyone. That is what it guarantees.

A. Menéndez: What is your analysis of the election results of the PP in Andalusia: half a million votes less, seventeen seats lost, from being the biggest party to second place?

President of the Government: Yes. They weren't the best, they weren't good. We would have liked a better result. It's true that in 2012 we had the best results in our history, we had never won regional elections in Andalusia, and it is true that the distance between us and the PSOE in 2004 and 2008 was bigger than this year, in 2015. Of course, we are not happy; but what we are going to do is ensure that this serves as a stimulus to work much harder and to transmit the People's Party message more clearly.

A. Menéndez: I told you I was going to ask about three regions. Another is the Basque Country. This Sunday was Aberri Eguna, the Day of the Basque Country, with several statements made by people ranging from the president of the PNV to the Lehendakari (Basque President) Inigo Urkullu. Some statements have to do with a message from the Basque President that "the Spain of the autonomous regions is over", if I can put it like that. The intention or opinion is that the system of autonomous regions in Spain is exhausted, as Urkullu said. And then, there was a kind of olive branch held out by PNV to Sortu, if a self-criticism process begins within the ETA, to accept them within a certain community and society. I wanted to ask about these two issues within Euskadi.

President of the Government: In the Basque Country there is, today, a priority that, in my opinion, is really the only priority and the only substantial change the Spanish people expect and that could be relevant: the change is that ETA should announce its dissolution as a terrorist organisation. It is true that ETA has not killed anyone for a time; but it is also true that ETA is a terrorist organisation and, therefore, it is an organisation, a terrorist organisation that does not respect the individual rights of people, starting with people's lives. That is the priority in the Basque Country.

As to the rest, I believe the State of Autonomous Regions is a model that has worked well in recent years and has led to the highest levels of self-government in the entire history of our country. In other words, never in history - from whatever period you study, from whatever side you look at it, from whatever point of view - never has the Basque Country had the level of self-government it has today, when it has responsibility for the major basic public services: health, education, social services. It also has Security, because it has the Ertzaintza (regional police force), and also the Treasury. Therefore, its powers are at a level that can't be exceeded and there is certainly no territory in the world with this level of responsibilities, because Spain is a country with an enormous level of decentralisation.

Consider, for example, that the Government I lead - if we remove pensions - accounts for 20% of public spending in Spain. That is a very significant level of expenditure. What the Government has is mainly large infrastructure projects, the Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Public Works, and then the Social Security and State Tax Agency: 20% of total Spanish public spending. So we are a decentralised State.

And the most important thing in the Basque Country is that ETA should dissolve, in order to end the threat that has caused so much harm to so many people for so long.

A. Menéndez: I'm left with Catalonia, in terms of this regional review. We mentioned before the unfortunate accident in the Alps of the Germanwings plane. In your trip there from Spain you were with President Artur Mas and I know on the 13th you will again see him at a ceremony in Barcelona. On that trip, could Mr Mas and you, Mr Rajoy, talk about the Catalan question?

President of the Government: We were together, because it seems reasonable to me and because we are sensible and civilised people. Mr. Mas was interested in going to the place where the tragedy occurred. Many of those who sadly lost their lives there were people who lived in Catalonia. I also went as President of the Government, and so I think it's natural that we should go together. It makes no sense that each goes his own way and, what's more, in this case the Government of Spain had more resources to do it. We obviously talked; but we didn't talk about the Catalan issue.

Mr Mas is very well acquainted with my position, everybody knows it. Now they have reached a new agreement, now they have announced elections. I don't know if there will be or not. The only thing I'm saying is that these are regional elections, which is what they are, to elect the Catalan Parliament, which will then elect the President of the Catalan Government. Then people say they will issue a unilateral declaration of sovereignty. That can't be done; it simply can't be done and this will be submitted to the Constitutional Court.

Sovereignty resides in the Spanish people as a whole and there are rules and laws. It could never be recognised by Europe. Europe will not recognise the unilateral declaration of sovereignty of anybody. Therefore, on this issue, what I believe is that we must begin to work together on the path of common sense. Today the world is undergoing a process of integration. Look at what the European Union is, we are constantly giving up part of our sovereignty and that process makes no sense, except to divide people and to hinder the recovery of the economy, or make it weaker than it could be.

A. Menéndez: On the subject of Bárcenas, Mr Rajoy. In his written answer to the charges, which we had access to only a few days ago, the former treasurer of the People's Party points directly at the general secretaries. Is this a qualitative leap, is it something new? Do you see it that way or not?

President of the Government: No. That's what he has already been saying for a long time. Mr Bárcenas stopped being a senator for the People's Party five years ago - how time flies - and he is no longer a treasurer of the People's Party. He is now working on his defence and he is defending himself in any way he considers appropriate and convenient. But, of course, you can be absolutely certain that the general secretaries of the People's Party have always worked within the limits of the law and have absolutely all my trust, my support along with that of the People's Party.

A. Menéndez: Are you afraid that something new may emerge this year, with so many elections? As they come closer, are you afraid there may be something new?

President of the Government: No, I don't see that there can be anything that public opinion doesn't already know about.

A. Menéndez: And do you regret anything in your relationship with Mr Bárcenas? Not having broken off with him before, for example?

President of the Government: I was in Parliament not long before I came here, to be with you, in November 2013. Yes indeed, I recognised faults, errors and mistakes. He was with us for a long time in our party and we failed to see some things. Obviously, we failed and that should help us be more diligent and more attentive to what may happen in the future.

A. Menéndez: That could be taken as self-criticism, Mr Rajoy.

President of the Government: I've already criticised myself many times in relation to this matter, and the party too. What makes no sense is to do that every day. What is important is that the State Security Forces should act, that the Public Prosecutor and the courts should act; and what is also important is to prevent this from occurring again in the future.
We have presented a very demanding legislative package in Parliament, it is already virtually passed; there is a Bill that I believe is still in the Upper House. I believe that all these events we have experienced over the last few years will undoubtedly prove to be a vaccine for the future.

A. Menéndez: A couple of questions on international affairs. Is the government preparing some kind of official trip, or visit, to Cuba, given the new relations between the United States and the Raul Castro regime? Is a possible trip like this being prepared or worked on?

President of the Government: At this point in time, no. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has been there, as you know, and what we want and what the vast majority of the Spanish people want is for Cuba to return to democracy soon; that it should become a democratic regime. I believe it is a country with great potential, with wonderful, talented and knowledgeable people, and we hope that this process, which is not easy, can evolve into democracy and, of course, Spain will be there to help.

A. Menéndez: What did you think of Rodríguez Zapatero's interview with Raul Castro? Does it help or cloud relations?

President of the Government: When I stop being President of the Government, I hope my colleagues treat me as I deserve and so I am going to treat Mr Rodríguez Zapatero in the same way. We talked about this matter, there is no problem and we are looking to the future.

A. Menéndez: On the subject of other visits, is there a date set for a possible visit by Alexis Tsipras to Spain? The Greek government is visiting various European markets, countries it owes money to and has a debt with. He will have to come to Spain at some point to meet you.

President of the Government: I would have no problem with that and, in fact, when the tragedy in the Alps occurred, which we were discussing before, he called me and it was the first time I had talked to him. I had never met him and called me to express his sympathy and condolences, his, those of his Government and of the entire Greek people, represented by him. And I said, well, we'll have to talk; and we'll probably talk or there will be a visit - I suppose that at the moment we are all pretty busy - or if not, during the next meeting of the European Council that will be held in Brussels in June.

I mean I would like Greece to emerge from this situation, which is very difficult. I would like it, first of all, for the Greek people; but I would also like it for the whole European Union. It's not good for Europe that events are occurring in Greece of the kind we are experiencing. But the government has to understand that the European Union is a union that has its rules and if everyone wants to set their own rules, it can't work.

When we came to government, and were not subjected to a bailout of Spain, we had a very tough time. I remember that the public deficit should have been 6% in 2011 and we found ourselves with a deficit of 9%. Of course, this hindered us a lot in our relations in the European Union but little by little we gained credibility. It cost us a lot; but if you follow the rules, if you are predictable, if you abide by your commitments, you end up reaping the rewards. That is true in politics and in any facet of life.

A. Menéndez: I don't know if in that conversation with Mr Tsipras, and I understand that wasn't the right time, he apologised for what he said about the "Madrid-Lisbon axis of evil".

President of the Government: No, no. I don't think ... That was a conversation in which he conveyed his condolences, as I said. That other thing was something, in my opinion, that was rather unfortunate and certainly very surprising. But anyway, forgive and forget and let's look to the future.

A. Menéndez: Then there's Venezuela, and the Government of Maduro. How are relations between Spain and Venezuela, with the interest that Spanish companies raise with their investments there?

President of the Government: I want to have good relations with Venezuela, but I received here the wives of two men who are in prison with no reason for them to be in prison. Leopoldo López is in prison and the mayor of Caracas, Mr Ledesma, is also in prison. These people therefore have the total support of normal people. What's more, I believe that in this we think like the vast majority of political parties in Spain. We are in the 21st century and in the 21st century what we want is political systems with democracy, freedom and human rights. So I met these women, it's the least I could do and therefore I would like these people not to be in jail, because I think they have done nothing to deserve being there.

Having said that, I would like things to go well for Venezuela. They have an economic situation that is not the best. Hopefully it will do well, because it has been a sister nation and friend for a long time, and because there are all kinds of emotional and personal ties. Many people have gone to Venezuela from the Canary Islands, many people from my land, many Galicians, and many Basque citizens. I have family members born in fact in Caracas, and I would like things to go well; but in the 21st century behaviour must conform to the classical rules of a democracy.

A. Menéndez: We are coming to a close now, Mr Rajoy. Just a couple of questions: what does your Government want the care provided to illegal, undocumented immigrants, so to speak, to be? What do you want it to end as finally?

President of the Government: We want it to be the same in all the autonomous regions, that's the most important thing. At one time we made a change in the law with a section that allowed professionals to be in the public health system, because they weren't before, and for people who have been unemployed for a long time - those that are technically called the "long-term unemployed" - people who have been out of work for a long time, people who lost their access to health care, not to lose it. In fact, look, there are now some hundreds of thousands more health cards than when we made this change in the law in 2012.

Another thing we did was to end the so-called "health tourism"; in other words, people who did not even live in Spain, and who came here and received operations, or even were operated in their country and then had to be paid, because they were in an irregular situation, many did not live here. What we said was that they had the right to emergency treatment and a number of healthcare services, and young people had the right to everything. Now, as there are some autonomous regions that instead of helping these people via the emergency services do so through primary care, we will try to ensure that they can all be seen in primary care, but with the same standard throughout Spain.

A. Menéndez: Are you in favour, Mr Rajoy, of suspending the match if the national anthem is booed at before the final of the King's Cup?

President of the Government: What I am in favour of is that the anthem should not be hissed at the final of the King's Cup. I think it makes no sense. It doesn't happen in any country of the world. The final of the King's Cup is a sporting event, many players have said as much, and that is how it should be treated. So I am in favour of not hissing at the anthem, just like the vast majority of Spanish people, and I hope that is what happens. I hope it's a great game and the best side wins.

A. Menéndez: But if it is booed at, are you in favour of suspending it?

President of the Government: Let's never anticipate events, because it makes no sense.

A. Menéndez: Finally, before the Governing Council meeting tomorrow, are you considering any changes in the party, Mr Rajoy?

President of the Government: No, there will be no changes and I'll say so tomorrow at the Council meeting. The Government is working very well and the party is operating very well. We are the same people who won the general election in 2011 and in 2011 we achieved the best results ever in the regional and local elections. There has never been a better year for the People's Party than 2011 and so we can't improvise or make changes. You can always make small adjustments and try to improve things, but there will be no changes in what is essential. And in general I am satisfied with how things are working.

A. Menéndez: If you want to use this occasion to send another message to your supporters before the Council meeting tomorrow, now is the time. I would be delighted.

President of the Government: No, no. I am absolutely convinced that you understand what my obligation is: there are things I have to say to my party, say them to my party before I say them to everyone else. Not for any special reason other than out of a minimum of courtesy, which is necessary. They are the organs of my party where I carry on politics and have been doing so for many years.

A. Menéndez: Mr President of the Government, Mariano Rajoy, thank you for having us here at the Moncloa Palace, and for our 47 minutes of conversation.

President of the Government: I thank you very much. It has been an honour.