Interview with the President of the Government on Telecinco

Pedro Piqueras: This is a day packed with news, on which we are particularly grateful to receive the visit of the President of the Government. Mr. Rajoy, good evening.

President of the Government: Good evening, if that can be said with news like this.

P. Piqueras: We saw that you were getting some information. Was it the Minister for Defence? Do you have any details about what happened?

PoG: Yes, I have been talking to the Minister for Defence; we have been in touch throughout the afternoon, and he is now in Albacete. He has confirmed to me the information you broadcast on your news: no Spanish people have died or been injured. Two people appear to have died who are Greek nationals and eight French nationals; and then there are many injured: he has told me of ten French and eleven Italians. I believe the information you have given is substantially all that we have at the present time.

P. Piqueras: I suppose that they are already taking the necessary steps to repatriate the bodies there. Is the Minister for Defence there? Are other ministers from other countries going to arrive, as far as we know?

PoG: The Minister for Defence is there and the President of the Government of Castile-La Mancha is also there. The French Defence Minister has confirmed that he will be in Albacete tomorrow and probably also the Italian minister. Those are the conformations we have received at this point in time, but it's still very early; it's still very early, I repeat, for reliable information.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, let's begin the interview now. First let's look at how quickly changes have occurred in Greece. Alexis Tsipras is now head of government; tomorrow the entire Executive will have taken up their posts; and Mr Tsipras has made his first speech with much more moderate language than at the start of the campaign. What is your analysis of what has happened?

PoG: I think what has happened in Europe recently is that we have experienced a major economic crisis and that has led to the emergence of parties other than traditional ones: radical parties. In this case it is a party that calls itself the Radical Left; in France the last elections were won by the far right, Le Pen, who also applauded the victory of Syriza in Athens; in the UK, UKIP were the winners too... In other words, parties of these characteristics have emerged everywhere.

What can happen from now on? I am calm. I believe that Greece will remain in the euro and I am absolutely convinced that this Government that has just been constituted is going to stick by Greece's commitments because if it does not stick by its commitments, and if whenever there is a change of government in Europe in a particular country everything changes, it is impossible for Europe to go forward. So I believe that Greece must stick by its commitments and this government must be aware that it is replacing another that assumed those commitments in the name of Greece, and assumed them before all its partners in the European Union.

P. Piqueras: They speak of victory, of the rebellion against the "austericide". I don't know if you believe in historical cycles; but today, the day after these Greek elections, some believe that Spain will go the way of Syriza, that Podemos may follow in its path. Yesterday we heard the leader of Podemos, Pablo Iglesias, make a comparison, it's unclear whether as a threat or as a warning, with clock ticking away, saying something along the lines of the time of the traditional parties is over. I don't know what you think about that.

PoG: I think that it is the traditional parties that have made Europe great and, in fact, in the bigger countries where there is a better standard of living and wealth the traditional parties are in power. In the United States there are two major parties; in Germany there are two major parties; in the UK, two major parties; also in France, Spain ... In other words, the countries with a higher standard of living and wealth are countries that function very well; elsewhere there may be new leaders, radical parties, extremist parties, which, at the end of the day, don't solve people's problems.

It's very easy to censure a situation, but governing is very difficult. In Spain we have passed through a situation of enormous complexity; but now we are the European Union country with the biggest economic growth and the European Union country that is creating most jobs. So the work of censure is easy. It's easy to criticize, complain about others or say how bad things are going; but governing is not easy. And now let's see how they govern. I wish Syriza the best of luck.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, the fact is that you, Podemos and the People's Party, are running neck-and-neck in the opinion polls as a possible election winners. A few days ago there was a news item, a dinner at the home of former Speaker of the House, Mr Bono, at which Mr Rodríguez Zapatero and leaders of Podemos were present. Do you think this is, in some sense -- it was in fact a secret meeting - a political endorsement, recognition of Podemos?

PoG: I don't know, because I don't know what the reason for this lunch was, and it's not something I'm too worried about. But all parties can stand in the elections and, at the end of the day, it is the people who decide who they want to govern the country at a concrete and specific time. So as far as I'm concerned, they have a perfect right to hold this meeting; but it will be those who were there that will have to explain to the Spanish people. I wasn't there.

P. Piqueras: How do you interpret what has happened and what we have learned today about the calling of early elections in Andalusia? It appears that there has been a breakdown of confidence between the United Left (Izquierda Unida) and the Socialist Party, and the President of the Regional Government has called elections for 22 March.

PoG: I have an opinion and it is that elections are for a period of four years. In other words, we can't be constantly holding elections. This is the same debate that has taken place in Catalonia: regional elections in Catalonia in 2010, elections in 2012, now elections in 2015. Four years are a necessary period and there should only be early elections when the government can't get its budget approved. That's my opinion and this is the opinion, in general, in all normal countries and, of course, of our neighbours, the countries in the European Union.

I honestly believe that there could have been government in Andalusia; I honestly believe that there's no point in holding early elections; they have every right to, but they could have been timed to coincide with the local elections. Because as it is there will be elections in March, local and regional elections in thirteen autonomous regions as programmed in May, then regional elections are announced in Catalonia for September and then we still have the general elections. I don't think that is good. Especially now that we have already begun economic recovery, that we are now growing and that we are already creating jobs, generating and implementing factors that create instability is far from positive. If she wanted early elections, which I wouldn't have done, she should have made them coincide with the local elections, which are in May.

P. Piqueras: Some people consider that the aim of Susana Diez - it's something that has been mentioned, it's not that I believe in it at all; I don't know what your opinion is......... - the reason she made this call is to serve as a springboard for herself for other goals on the national stage.

PoG: I don't know. I know what I read, but obviously I'm not going to worry about what certain people do. My concern as President of the Government of Spain is to consolidate the economic recovery, ensure that the four hundred thousand jobs that have been created in 2014 become six hundred thousand in 2015 and that in the last two years of our term of office we have a million people who can now work, although there is still much to be done in the future.

Having said that, my relationship with the leader of the opposition is with Pedro Sanchez, who is leader of the opposition and it is with him that I am obliged to ...

P. Piqueras: Is it with him that you see yourself competing, with Pedro Sánchez, rather than with Susana?

PoG: I don't see myself competing. At this point I see myself talking. I talk to him regularly; sometimes he calls me, I call him. I think there are some things on which it is good that we should reach an agreement on, such as matters related to the fight against terrorism, which was the last conversation we had. So I don't, nor should I, get mixed up in the internal problems of the parties, just as I wouldn't wish anyone to do if we had these problems in our party.

So the person I talk to is Pedro Sanchez and is with him that I speak and reach an understanding, or not.

P. Piqueras: If you agree, let's talk about unemployment, economy, growth. The CIS opinion polls say - and they have been saying so for a long time - that unemployment is the biggest problem facing Spanish people. There has been some decline in recent quarters, but the situation remains difficult for millions of citizens. Let's listen to what they say:

Q: Mr Rajoy, I have been unemployed for a number of months and I'd like to know what the first step you take is going to be, if you could tell us, to achieve those million jobs that you announced for the near future.

Q: Mr Rajoy, my name is Lucía and I am finishing my studies. I would like to know what are you going to do for me so that, when I finish, I will not have to go abroad to seek my future.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, these are two problems that occur in...

PoG: Yes, it's a perfectly reasonable question. People who are studying and who want to know what the future has in store for them, and others who have lost their job and, of course, want it back.

This is the most important problem is Spain, this is the problem I have dedicated most time to in the three years that I have been President of the Government.

Sometimes we don't realize it, but we have lived through the biggest economic crisis in many years in our country. In the previous government's term of office, between 2008-2011 there were 3,400,000 jobs lost in Spain. The goal was to grow and create jobs, and, as I said, following seven years of job destruction, in 2014 just over 400,000 jobs were created in Spain. I can assure you it was one of the happiest days of my life, because it has been very difficult. And this year, 2015, I can tell you that we will grow more and we will create around 550,000 or 600,000 jobs. That's why I talk about a million in 2014 and 2015.

I am absolutely convinced that it will be so; and there are also many people who have helped make this come about; but even so, it will be clearly insufficient.

What we therefore have to do is maintain the economic policy we have implemented, which has been tough. It has not been easy and I know it has upset many people. We have had to take decisions that we did not like to take; but in the end, if you see that it has been of some use, which is what we're seeing, if you see that it has been helpful, I can assure you it is very satisfying and I am convinced that soon Spain will recover the standard of living it enjoyed for many years.

P. Piqueras: Right now as a result of the crisis, we all have family members who are unemployed and some, if they are not unemployed and have found a job are not on permanent contracts and, sometimes, wages are very low. That's the truth, Mr President of the Government.

PoG: In Spain, permanent contracts ... Some 75% of people who are working have a permanent contract. We are better off today than a few years ago; but in Spain there are many contracts that are not permanent, but temporary, for example in the hospitality industry: jobs in the hospitality industry or in agriculture, even in construction, which are not jobs that last 12 months, because hotels or restaurants close, above all in tourist areas.

As for wages, wages are agreed in collective agreements between employers' organizations and the trade unions. Now, I will say one thing: the agreement reached at the start of 2012 between the unions and employers' organizations in Spain was a decisive agreement - I repeat, a decisive agreement, because the government wasn't involved, I can tell you - for economic recovery.

There is another thing that is very good, which is that prices have been contained. Last year prices fell in Spain, in December, by 1.1%. That is good, first of all, because it preserves purchasing power; but second, it makes our businesses more competitive and thus they sell more, produce more and can hire more people.

I think we are implementing an economic policy that not only produces results but is laying solid foundations for the future.

P. Piqueras: Yes, Mr President of the Government, but despite that, on many days and recently, last Friday, we have been faced with scenes of evictions. They are scenes of the eviction of a family with a two-month-old baby and we all wonder if more can't be done, if measures can be taken to prevent it from occurring, to make sure such extreme situations are taken into account.

PoG: Yes, of course more can be done. But the fact is that this is not the norm. That is not what usually happens in Spain, this is a news story of one eviction. What is not news is that there is no eviction and I think after some decisions we have taken the financial institutions are being much more flexible in this regard. We often talk of evictions but there are people who have rented out a flat, who are not being paid and who also need the money. But the number of evictions in Spain after recent decisions we have taken has fallen, I can assure you, it has fallen a great deal, although the goal and the challenge must be that there is not a single eviction for non-payment and that we should be capable, and we are doing it, of continuing to build homes and helping those in greatest difficulties.

P. Piqueras: I wouldn't want you to get the impression that I want to present the interview from a negative point of view, especially with respect to economic and social issues, because there is one aspect, economic growth, which international agencies are pointing to as a positive sign for Spain, more positive than for other countries in the European Union.

PoG: I sometimes think, and after what we experienced in 2012, when everyone said "Spain will be bailed out, Spain can't get finance, the risk premium is out of control" ... We were the sick man of Europe. Of course, now that we are told we are growing more than the Germans, the French or the Italians, or that we create more jobs than anyone, although I am aware that there are very many things left to do, I say, I say to the people of Spain, Look! There has been a point to all this. It has been tough and it has been difficult, but there has been a point, because the good part starts now. They have been very bad years. It is very hard to remember a period in our history when there were seven straight years of job destruction! It is very tough, but now we are going to emerge stronger, and that is what should encourage us for the future.

For me these latest economic figures, what people say about us abroad, is quite simply a stimulus to continue working, if possible, harder and with even more success.

P. Piqueras: And when will the Spanish people begin to note this progress? When are they going to start receiving the money? When is it going to reach the companies so that there can be growth, so there can be consumption?

PoG: There are many people to whom it has already arrived, the more than 400,000 who have found a job.

P. Piqueras: Some would say that it reached the banks first.

PoG: The banks? I don't know about that. I want the banks to lend. It's the only thing I worry about. One of the most important things for us is that, above all, SMEs should have finance. It has improved. The decline in the risk premium itself has been very helpful. We were financing ourselves, I mean the government, at a 10-year rate of over 7%, and now we do so at just over 1%. So that's what should interest us now.

We had to nationalise three banks; but the fact is that if we hadn't nationalised them, what would have happened to the deposits of the Spanish people who had their money there? They would have lost them. It doesn't appear that that would have been the most reasonable course of action.

We had to do many things. We have been in an emergency situation, as I say, at the point of being bailed out. Look, now people try to compare Greece with Spain, but there is a substantial difference: Spanish people were able to endure and knew how to avoid the bailout. A bailout would have meant, as happened to others, the obligation to cut pensions, as happened in some countries, by 10%.

P. Piqueras: Greece, in fact.

PoG: For example; or other countries. I don't want to name names.

In other words, the big decision that has been taken over these three years, the most important, what the Spanish people have understood, is that Spain had to do everything possible to not be bailed out. That was the best social policy decision taken here, the Spanish people understood that very well, and if they hadn't, we would be in the position others are in. That is something that demonstrates that in this country there are many people with courage, with strength, determination and drive; and that at times of the greatest difficulty they know how to act, how to make an effort, how to step up to the mark; and that many of the things that are done are understood.

P. Piqueras: The former treasurer of your party, Luis Bárcenas, has been released after 19 months in prison. In his first statement he referred to you, by the way, to the unofficial accounting book of the People's Party. Did you know about this accounting book "B"? Have you ever received money under the counter?

PoG: I didn't know about it, and I haven't received it.

I would like to say the following on this subject. We have already given many explanations on this subject. I understand people and there are two things it is important that they demand from us, and we're trying to accomplish them. The first is to punish those who do what they should not do, who are involved in cases of corruption; and I tell you that now in Spain, today, the Police, Civil Guard, public prosecutors, judges, State Tax Agency and General State Comptroller are acting more freely and more efficiently than ever. That means the guilty pay. Second, I understand, and we are acting on it, we must take all the measures possible to prevent these things from occurring again in the future. We have presented many Bills and some are being debated in Parliament at this very time.

Having said that, I've been in the Lower House of Parliament, at difficult plenary sessions, I've been in the Upper House, I've explained this many times and I refuse to spend all day debating with Mr Bárcenas whenever he may decide to make a statement. Now it is time for the judges and the courts to say what they have to say. We are trying to fulfil our obligations and we will do everything in our power to prevent this from ever happening again.

P. Piqueras: However, with respect to the secret accounts in the "B book" of the People's Party, even the State Attorney and the Public Prosecutor in his report agree that they existed, do they not?

PoG: I can assure you that neither I nor the party leaders I know had the faintest idea about its existence. Maybe it was someone's accounting book; but never that of the People's Party.

P. Piqueras: If it's all right with you, let's listen to the voices of some people who are complaining about the general issue of corruption.

Q: Mr Rajoy, we have had corrupt politicians for some time, who steal the money in our country. What steps will the government take to give us back the money?

Q: Mr Rajoy, why have you been so slow in condemning cases of corruption?

PoG: They are two very reasonable questions. We have been quick to condemn cases of corruption. We have always condemned them. Maybe we did not act quickly at the appropriate time; but I have to say that everyone who has been in this party and who was involved in cases of corruption is no longer in the party.

In other words, with respect to this case we are talking about, the "Bárcenas case", we have been with it for six years. This gentleman, Mr Bárcenas, left the People's Party some time ago, he's no longer in our party, is he?

P. Piqueras: He says he's going to ask to be reinstated. He said it mainly to shock.

PoG: Well, anyway... The important thing is that we all have the determination, strength, desire and courage to avoid this from taking place again. I am convinced that many of the laws that we have presented in Parliament will be very useful. There is a law that I think is very important, an amendment we made to the Criminal Code so that all those who appropriate money that isn't theirs have to return it. I think that was something people were claiming to be highly important.

P. Piqueras: It is a demand on the part of the people. I assure you that, although we have only chosen two people, most of them say that.

PoG: Well, it's in the reform of the Criminal Code we have presented to Parliament and I hope it will be approved as quickly as possible.

P. Piqueras: Wouldn't your party and the rest of the political parties gain credibility if, even though they say that they will act decisively against those who steal, those who misappropriate public funds, rather than waiting for a judgment, for the person in question to be called before the judge, you yourselves, who no doubt see behaviour or may notice that there is behaviour that is not fully lawful within your parties, detected such behaviour and presented it immediately to the courts?

PoG: Yes, probably, yes; but there are many times when you are not clear about things. Remember, it is the judge who ultimately issues the judgment; but of course, when you accuse someone of something that turns out he did not commit you may also be generating a huge injustice. Also, there are some cases that are clearer than others, some are certainly doubtful.

But the important thing is that we all take this seriously - I can assure you that I take this matter very seriously - and that we must be able to take all the decisions needed to prevent these things from happening again in the future.

Look, I started in politics many years go. I have been a local councillor and, well, I look at Galicia, for example, which is obviously what I know best, and in Galicia there are hundreds of councillors in all political parties who don't even get paid, who work in their home towns and who are dedicated to it. Generalization is also very dangerous. Sure, the news is bad; but there are thousands of people who engage in politics throughout the whole country, who are people that deserve respect.

P. Piqueras: No doubt. I think, honestly, no one in the media questions that, there are thousands of people who are honest; but at some point we come across a case, such as the "Pujol case" in which a family fortune has been amassed or a family fortune is suspected of having been amassed, and of course we were all surprised, sad and hurt with actions arising from a certain way of doing politics.

PoG: Yes. Whenever a corruption case occurs, whenever events occur as in the case you have mentioned now, or other cases where other parties are involved, it will always make the news. As in so many facets of life, just as those of us who are making an effort to improve the economic situation so that people do better and can get a job, we must also continue to make an effort to ensure this does not happen again. And I think we'll all be pretty well vaccinated for some time.

P. Piqueras: Let's change tack, Mr President of the Government. Let's talk about jihadism, because lately we have been witnessing an increase in activities, attacks, challenges, from jihadists, Islamic terrorists, and it is true that in Spain there have been arrests of people willing to commit attacks or travel to fight on the side of the Islamic State in Syria or Iraq. The attacks in Paris at the offices of the weekly magazine Charlie Hebdo shocked public opinion around the world; and what we ask ourselves, what many people wonder, is to what extent Spanish people consider ourselves secure against this general threat?

PoG: To be perfectly frank, neither Spanish nor anyone else in the world can have 100% security; but the information we handle ... Our intelligence and information services say that at the present time in Spain, here in our country, there are fewer probabilities than in others of events of these characteristics occurring.

In any event, I would like to say one thing of which I am deeply convinced: you can't save yourself from these things in isolation. We should be concerned about what happens in Spain; but we should also be concerned about what happens in France, what happens in Germany and what happens in the United Kingdom. The most important thing that can be done in the fight against terrorism is for all decent, honest and democratic people who believe in freedom, whatever their beliefs, to be united together. That is why the demonstration in Paris where everyone was present was so important. It was a proof of unity. And once we have that, there is cooperation and legislation to improve the effectiveness of the fight against terrorism.

I was Minister for Home Affairs when the events occurred in the United States on 9-11. I was the first European Minister for Home Affairs who went to America and was greeted there by the attorney general, the Vice President at the time and the director of the FBI, and the information supplied from here, and from other countries, was also very useful. In this cooperation is key, as is unity.

P. Piqueras: Besides cooperation, apart from the international unity in this respect, it is clear that Ceuta, Melilla, some parts of Madrid and Catalonia are centres where jihadism is preached and where people have been arrested that could be active terrorists. Are there any special plans against this?

PoG: Yes, 62 people have been arrested so far in this term of office, 62 people; but terrorists can be anywhere. We can't point and say they are in this or that city. Today they are on the Internet. For example, one of the changes we're talking about, and that I hope we will reach an agreement on soon, is to define the crimes that are committed online.

The world has changed. This did not exist before. It was not included in the criminal codes simply because it did not exist. So we have to make a major effort there. This is not a problem of cities. Terrorists today can be anywhere; today it is very easy to move around. They can be in Paris, they can be in London, they can be in Madrid, they can be anywhere. They can live in one place and attack in another.

So I wouldn't concentrate on that. What we do have to be clear about is that we defend democracy, we defend freedom, we defend life and fundamental rights; and that these are above any other consideration. And that you have to fight not those who think differently, but those who aim to deprive us all of our freedom, our life and our fundamental rights.

And if you want know something; I'm happy because I see a good atmosphere, good cooperation and a desire to do things together in Europe. On this subject I am happy.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, we're just a step away from the local elections and you still don't have candidates in Madrid, either local or regional, do you?

PoG: And that's true in many places. In the 2011 elections we appointed them in March, and the elections were on the same date, the second to last Sunday in May.

I think we will begin in February; the National Electoral Committee will begin to appoint candidates for the largest local councils in Spain and the autonomous regions.

P. Piqueras: I say this because I am sure that Esperanza Aguirre, for example, is watching this interview and no doubt is expecting an exclusive. Aren't you going to give her one?

PoG: I'm not able to do so, because that is the responsibility of the National Committee and I'm not its chairman. It is one of my party's bodies.

P. Piqueras: Mr President of the Government, thank you for being with us here tonight on Telecinco, on a day so full of news that we will leave you with another link-up to Albacete where the airplane accident occurred. It involved an F-16 that crashed, resulting in numerous deaths and injuries.

PoG: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.