Interview with Acting President of the Government on Antena 3 News

PEDRO SÁNCHEZ: Acting President of the Government.

VICENTE VALLÉS, journalist.

Q: Acting President of the Government and Socialist Party candidate in the upcoming elections on 10 November. Pedro Sánchez, good evening.

Acting President of the Government: Good evening.

Q: Thank you for appearing on Antena 3 News.

Well, we have been counting the figures to come out of the polls. Figures explained in general because obviously each poll shows slightly different details but it can be seen that the PSOE maintains its leading position but has not managed to make too much headway on the position it holds at this time. The PP has made headway, although not enough to catch the PSOE. Ciudadanos has lost support, as has Podemos, albeit not by so much, Vox has lost a small share, while Más País would seem to have picked up some of the seats that Podemos has lost.

How would you sum up this start to the campaign when looking at these figures? We saw yesterday, for example, a lot of people attending the Vox event in Madrid. What do you think about this?

Acting President of the Government: Well, let's see. I believe we are only at the first hurdle. There are still five weeks to go until the elections on 10 November, and hence, two things clearly come out of this. The first is that the only guarantee that there won't be a stalemate on 10 November is by voting for the Socialist Party because it is quite clearly the leading political force, according to all the polls. And secondly, that the only force that can guarantee what was voted for on 28 April, and also on 26 May, which is for the investiture of a progressive government, is the Socialist Party.

At any event, as you rightly pointed out, the main political problem facing the country at this time is that there was a stalemate imposed for all these months. But we hope that on 10 November this stalemate will be removed and that, hence, we can enjoy a period of stability that puts behind us this provisional and interim period in which Spanish politics has wallowed over recent years.

Q: But aren't you surprised that after so many weeks, months even, with you sending out this message to unblock the stalemate in the country, at the start of this campaign the Socialist Party is not taking off more strongly to attain a predominant position that will allow it to govern with a more comfortable margin? I say this, for example, because of what your Portuguese colleague achieved in yesterday's elections; despite not gaining an absolute majority, he is not far off.

Acting President of the Government: I repeat, I believe we have to, first of all, set out our campaign. We are at the start of this. And I believe that our political problem is still subject to a stalemate. Today I heard leaders of the People's Party, and also of Ciudadanos, say that they don't know whether to unblock the situation or not; whether finally, they will allow the Socialist Party to govern or not.

I would like - and I feel that this is one of the main questions that the different political parties should respond to, particularly, the PP, Cs and Unidas Podemos, which are the parties that blocked the formation of the government after the elections on 28 April - the question that people respond to is whether on 10 November, once the election results are announced, whether the Socialist Party has a few more or a few less seats they will continue with their political stalemate. And I believe that this question should have the simple answer of "yes" or "no". Because it is important for our citizens to be aware of the position that these parties will adopt after 10 November.

Q: The feeling is that, perhaps, what you understood by unblocking the situation is not exactly what the other political leaders understand by it. Because both the PP and Ciudadanos, in the last few hours, have offered to unblock the situation based on agreements, not based on "we give you our seats free".

Acting President of the Government: In fact, that is something I have never wanted. In short, I believe that I have always proposed the same thing: a progressive government that guarantees certain stability; in other words, that didn't depend on the pro-independence forces that do not share the agenda on the government that Spain needs. And thirdly, a cohesive government, a government that that was not split in two, for example, over a question like Catalonia. Just imagine a government where you have one part defending the Constitution, the constitutional order and the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, while the other part argues that there are political prisoners in Catalonia.

Hence, I believe that what the Socialist Party and I myself have always proposed has been the same: a progressive government, a government with the guarantee of certain stability, and also, quite clearly, coherence in forming this government.

Let me tell you something else. There is a great deal of talk at this time about political partiality and the multi-party system. What difference does it make having 5, 8, 10, 50 or 100 political parties if after our citizens have voted in the elections you have a stalemate and no government is formed in Spain? I believe that this is what we must resolve by responding on 10 November. And, I stress, in all the polls, the feeling in the streets, as also happened on 26 May and on 28 April, is that the Socialist Party is the only party that can guarantee a way out of this political stalemate in our country.

Q: The Socialist Party won the elections but when a party, albeit the most voted for party, has 123 seats, you cannot say that our citizens have granted it the automatic right to govern.

Acting President of the Government: That is correct. In fact, that is what…

Q: I say this because yesterday, you, let's say, created some distance between you and the offers made by both the PP and Ciudadanos, saying that "I have nothing to say to these parties", and you then speak of a progressive government. That means that after the elections you will be looking more in the direction of Podemos and Más País to reach an agreement.

Acting President of the Government: Let's see. What do our citizens vote for on Election Day? Firstly, the political direction of a government: a progressive government or a conservative government.

Clearly, on 28 April, they voted for a progressive government. On 26 May, they voted again, three times over, for progressive governments.

Q: So then, we can always rule out Ciudadanos …

Acting President of the Government: Yes, because there is now a great deal of debate over the great coalition while, in reality, the great coalition is a big trap being used, in this case, by Unidas Podemos and also by the People's Party before the elections, during the election campaign to say, no less, that what the Socialist Party wants is, let's say, to betray its progressive principles.

But look, what Unidas Podemos is doing is precisely hiding the fact that it has voted four times in four years against the formation of a progressive government headed up by the Socialist Party. And it is also being used by the People's Party and by Mr Casado to hide their pacts with the far right.

Just look, yesterday you and I heard, as did many Spaniards, what the leader of Vox, the leader of the far right in Spain, said. He accused the Socialist Party of being a criminal party. Just a few days ago, we also heard other far-right leaders criticise and criminalise 13 women who were murdered, who were shot dead although they had not committed any crime; they had simply defended liberty in Spain at that time. I have not heard any leader of the People's Party discredit and distance themselves from this kind of disparagement and criticism and from outbursts by the far right. What do I want to say to you with this? That you can't pretend to be a moderate while forging pacts with the far right. That the Socialist Party will always defend the same, wherever we are: a progressive government, a government that will not root its stability in the backing of the pro-independence forces and a government that is cohesive, and hence, is not divided into two.

Q: We have heard the leaders of Podemos say two things: first, that to reach an agreement with the Socialist Party and invest you as President of the Government there must be a coalition government and that the leader of Podemos, Pablo Iglesias, must not be subject to a veto. Will you meet these two conditions?

Acting President of the Government: Just look, over the last five months, I have offered this party - which is even a political party that was unable to guarantee the stability necessary because we still did not make up an absolute majority together - a coalition with a vice-presidency of the government and three ministerial departments; specifically, the Ministry of Health and Consumer Affairs, the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Housing and Social Economy.

Q: Will you do that again?

Acting President of the Government: No, let's see, I repeat that these are the three pillars, ideas around which I have always proposed a coalition government or to share the government in a multitude of ways: progressive, stable and cohesive. And, listening to Mr Iglesias and listening to Unidas Podemos over recent weeks, what is clear is that how they perceive the coalition is unfeasible.

Q: Acting President of the Government, it is hard then to see how you are going to get invested unless you get an absolute majority, because…

Acting President of the Government: No.

Q: … because if you can't reach an agreement with the right wing, because you want a progressive government, and if you aren't going to offer those to the left of the Socialist Party anything you haven't already offered because this chapter is, let's say, closed, how will you manage it? What do you expect, that they simply vote gratuitously to unblock the situation?

Acting President of the Government: Look, over recent months I said to Unidas Podemos, I offered them, as I said before, a coalition government. And I said to the People's Party and to Ciudadanos, listen, I understand that it is difficult to move from a "no" to an abstention, tell me exactly what you need, what we can agree on so as to allow and facilitate the formation of a government in Spain, and hence not get dragged into fresh elections on 10 November which, in the end, is what has happened.

What I want to say to you by this is that we have always been willing to reach agreements. In this case, through the abstention by the PP and Ciudadanos to facilitate a government and, in the case of Unidas Podemos, by reaching agreements on the government programme and on the very formation of the government.

Q: Is that what you maintain?

Acting President of the Government: But look, Mr Vallés, let's look back over the last 40 years. What has happened to our democracy? There haven't been many governments with an absolute majority. There have been minority governments.

Q: But there weren't as many national parties to share out the seats.

Acting President of the Government: Of course not, and that indeed is the question. If a multi-party system only exists to impose a stalemate, then "what sense is there in our political system?"

What I am saying is the multi-party system is good if it can ensure the stability and governability of our country. But I will not judge the multi-party system because it is what our people have chosen in each election process. What I would ask for is greater responsibility from the rest of the political parties in recognising, at least, that if there is no parliamentary alternative to what the Socialist Party represents, then they should at least allow Spain to be governed by the only possible government, headed up by the Socialist Party.

Q: Allow me to ask another question on this issue before moving on to other important matters. You mentioned the four occasions on which Podemos voted against you. In investiture votes. Indeed, you will stand for the fourth time in a row as the leader of the socialists at these elections, and you have stood for four votes in two investiture sessions, in 2016 and in 2019. Does the fact that you have stood before the Parliament of the Nation on four occasions and on all four occasions have been rejected by the Parliament of the Nation lead you to any particular thoughts on the matter, besides the criticism of the other parties for not supporting you?

Acting President of the Government: Well, I believe that the reflection all of us should make is that on 10 November we have to open up a new era, as we do in all election processes; in other words, the election campaign ends on the day of voting.

Look at what has happened in Portugal. The Socialist Party has won in Portugal and in just a few minutes the governability of the country was resolved. Because the other political formations, particularly the left-wing political formations, acknowledged the victory of the Socialist Party and said that they would not block the formation of a socialist government, arguing that, logically, they would facilitate governability in Portugal based on programmed negotiations founded, as you said on the news, for example, on raising the minimum wage and perhaps pensions.

Q: I am going to ask you precisely about that now. To begin with, I will read you something that the Acting Minister for Economy, Nadia Calvió, said a few minutes ago, "No-one portends a crisis". The Spanish people, when they hear that from the lips of a member of government don't know whether to start shaking or be satisfied. I say that from experience of other occasions when the same was said and then look at what happened.

Acting President of the Government: It shouldn't; it really shouldn't. I feel that what we, the Government of Spain, have done over recent months is clearly provide warning as to the threats to the international economy, the European economy, and consequently, to the Spanish economy, which does not particularly derive from factors related to the European or Spanish economy.

Q: But we suffer the same as if they were.

Acting President of the Government: That's right, but the origin lies elsewhere. The origins are the trade war, the battle between China and the United States, and that has an impact on economies that are important to us because we export to them, such as the German economy. But having said that, it is also clear that, if you look at the facts, there is no reason either for self-complacency or for fearing a disaster. The forecasts for economic growth and job creation are being met; over these last 12 months we have created around 480,000 new jobs; in other words, in line with the forecast made by the Government of Spain.

Q: The number of jobs created has slowed down considerably and you know that. In that regard, we are on a downward curve.

Acting President of the Government: We have said that economic growth is slowing down and, consequently, job creation will slow down, won't it? But just look at one thing. In year-on-year terms, the GDP rate of growth is lower than the rate for job creation. So, we are creating jobs at a faster rate than the growth of the economy. And that is also closely tied in to the resilience and strength, let's say, of the foundations of our economy. And, furthermore, we are reducing the public debt and the public deficit.

And then, I believe that we have, first of all, a project, the ideas and we have the teams. We have an economic team, with someone I believe has an extraordinary reputation at a national and an international level in the world of economics and business, who is the Acting Minister for Economy, Nadia Calviño.

Q: Today you offered 35 social measures in an advance of the election programme of the Socialist Party. And indeed, you mentioned there, for example, a rise in pensions, which you have promised for the month of December. And the possibility exists that you will be the Acting President of the Government in December.

Acting President of the Government: Let's hope not.

Q: But if that were the case, would you be in a position to raise pensions by the CPI rate whilst in a caretaker government?

Acting President of the Government: We will raise it, but I hope by that time as a government with full powers. That is why I believe it is important to form a government as soon as possible, that is stable and for us to have a sufficiently broad parliamentary majority to have a legislature that lasts for the full four years and not just for the investiture.

I feel that over these last 15 or 16 months that we have headed up the government, the pensioners of this country have seen radically different conduct and commitment from the previous administration We have raised pensions, and by doing so pensioners have not only guaranteed their purchasing power for 2019, but they have recovered that of 2018, which they had lost, and that of 2017.

What is my commitment? It is obviously to rebuild the Toledo Pact over the coming legislature and thus guarantee the maintenance of the public pension system. I have also committed to reducing the public deficit that currently exists in the social security system to zero over the next five years.

Q: By raising pensions by the CPI rate each year?

Acting President of the Government: Well, that is where we need to instigate a debate. And that is where we must give substance to the debate on the Toledo Pact Committee.

And I will tell you something else, Mr Vallés. For example, the heavily criticised measure of raising the minimum wage has meant that the contribution bases of National Insurance have risen, and consequently the revenue collected to support the social security system.

Over these last 12 months, for example in the month of September, if you look at the figures, you can see that more than 70% of employment contracts signed are permanent contracts, and full-time contracts; that also means stable contracts.

Q: Only 12%, Acting President of the Government, of all contracts that were signed in September.

Acting President of the Government: Yes, of course, but you have to look in year-on-year terms. In other words, the number of stable contracts signed from September to September. What I want to say is that job stability, job quality, how salaries have risen in recent months are all allowing National Insurance contributions to rise. And consequently, we can reduce the social security deficit. And accordingly, not only do we need to initiate the debate on improving the quality of jobs, but also initiate the debate on how to finance our public pension system on a complementary basis.

And something else that I think is essential: there are some items under the social security system that don't correspond thereto and that should be charged to the National Budget.

In short, I believe that there is a great deal of capacity to guarantee the sustainability of the public pension system without having to lower pensions for our elderly.

Q: You have already promised in some previous election programmes to remove the more harmful aspects, that was how you described them, of the labour reform. That has not yet happened because you have been a caretaker government most of the time, but in Brussels they are asking not to cut down on the reforms but to undertake new reforms in order to guarantee the sustainability of our economy. What reforms does the Socialist Party propose?

Acting President of the Government: As regards the 2012 labour reform that the People's Party proposed, I believe that there are many business owners - I have already spoken with the main associations of business owners in this country and also with the trade unions - who agree that, for example, what sub-contracting is doing is enhancing job insecurity and devaluing the wages of workers. I feel we have a lot to achieve in that regard. And there is a broad consensus in the Lower House of Parliament, by both the left wing and the right wing, to resolve the current problem of sub-contracting and job insecurity under this form of contract.

When we speak, for example, about strengthening collective bargaining. I believe that, if you look at what is happening in other European countries, it is clear that collective bargaining, social peace, if they exist, are positive for the economy, because they introduce certainty and consequently, I feel that the capacity for economic growth and job creation within the economy can be improved. Or if we talk, for example, about everything related to wage rises and higher salaries.

Hence, what I wish to say is that we want to look forwards not backwards. Not only do we wish to repeal the most harmful aspects of the 2012 labour reform, but we also want to approve a new Workers' Statute.

Right now, a new economic agent - the riders, which are to some extent the paradigm of this new economy - needs to be regulated. And right now we have enough case law in the employment courts to know exactly whether they are contracted workers or self-employed. Above all, these questions cannot be answered, I believe, in the current framework of labour relations, and hence we need to enact a new Workers' Statute. That, at least, is our commitment.

Q: We don't have much time left, but I still want to raise some issues with you. To begin with, on territorial matters, the situation in Catalonia. A vote of no confidence has been filed today and a vote of no confidence was held against the regional government of Joaquim Torra in the Regional Parliament of Catalonia. Your party, the Socialist Party of Catalonia, abstained. You say that you didn't want to support what was a vote of no confidence which you considered to be electioneering that was filed by Ciudadanos.

Acting President of the Government: Not just that. In the end, what votes of no confidence mustn't do is strengthen, in this case, those who you are seeking to censor. And, furthermore, there are enough reasons to censor him. Just look, Mr Torra has today received the largest parliamentary majority in this whole term of office.

Q: But you could be criticised of precisely not censoring Mr Torra when you had the chance.

Acting President of the Government: Well, we have done that, but, I stress, I believe that there are two very important elements. A vote of no confidence cannot be used to strengthen those in power, which is what Ciudadanos has done. And secondly, what you cannot do is have a vote of no confidence without talking first with the parliamentary groups which you obviously have to ask for support from, knowing, moreover, that you don't have the numbers for the vote to be passed.

As regards this question, I believe that it is very important - even though we are in an election process, and although it is true that Ciudadanos is a political party that has used the territorial confrontation, as has the People's Party, to try and claw back some votes from outside Catalonia - and I say this as the Acting President of the Government, that we should put party politics to one side and all these initiatives that could be construed as electioneering, and that don't correspond to the general interest. The only hope the pro-independence project, which has already failed, has at this time is the division of the pro-Constitution parties.

Hence, what I hope is that we can rise above this, in this case I refer to the People's Party and Ciudadanos, and that they do the same as the Socialist Party did when it was in opposition, which was to support the Government of Spain.

Q: Have you already got Article 155 ready for when the Supreme Court hands down its ruling?

Acting President of the Government: We have done our homework and considered all circumstances. I will repeat what I have said on many occasions. The response we will give will be a firm democratic response. It will thus be a response to guarantee co-existence in Catalonia and ensure that the law is upheld. It will be a proportional response to the challenge which, hypothetically, the pro-independence movement may make. And it will be a unitary response, that is, a response which I hope counts on the support of Ciudadanos, the People's Party and Unidas Podemos.

Q: Do you really believe that Unidas Podemos will be prepared to support the application for the activation of Article 155? I ask this because we could end up with the parties to the left of the PSOE supporting the Socialist Party to invest you as President of the Government and then you having to apply Article 155 with the support of the opposition and not those parties that have made you President of the Government.

Acting President of the Government: And that was the paradox, to some extent, of the previous legislature. And that is also why we are going to the elections on 10 November, because it is clear that, given the challenge deriving from the ruling to be handed down shortly against the Catalan pro-independence leaders, you cannot have a government where there is one part - the Socialist Party - that defends the Statute of Autonomy, the Spanish Constitution, co-existence, constitutional order and consequently, national sovereignty and territorial integrity, and another part of the government, in this case Unidas Podemos, that argues that there are political prisoners in Catalonia.

I believe that this is a deep-rooted disagreement that we have with Unidas Podemos. There are other similarities and issues we have in common with this political party, particularly at a social level, which is why we have always argued that that it would have been very reasonable to govern as a minority with the support of Unidas Podemos from outside the government.

Q: You have spoken about law and dialogue for Catalonia.

Acting President of the Government: Yes.

Q: Would dialogue be based on what you call "a plurinational Spain"? Would that be the offer you make to the pro-independence movement who, as you know, will not accept anything other than a referendum on independence?

Acting President of the Government: Just look, I have always said the same thing. What is the main disagreement we have with the pro-independence movement? That they advocate Catalonia outside of Spain. They advocate ripping Catalonia out of Spain. And that is a very dangerous process and project.

What's more, it was 1 October the other day. I have said this on many occasions. Let's take the very figures that the pro-independence supporters use, that nobody objects to, on the turnout. Around 43% of eligible voters turned out. Out of that turnout of 43% of eligible voters, 38% voted for independence on 1 October 2017. Not long after, on 21 December of the same year, regional elections were held in which almost 80% of eligible voters turned out to vote; in other words, practically double the number, but the pro-independence movement did not win. The political forces that defended staying in Spain, one way or another, won.

Hence, when they talk about a democratic mandate, when they talk about a majority of Catalans that advocate independence, they lie. A minority is a minority, and it always will be, however big it may be.

In Catalonia, there is a problem of co-existence because the majority of Catalan society does not want independence from Spain. They want to live in Spain, some in a different manner to at present, but within Spain.

So, I believe that what is important is for the Catalan pro-independence movement to be aware that they have failed, that they have lied in their claims and in their political project and what they should do is acknowledge the part of Catalonia that is not in favour of independence and build those bridges to ensure the co-existence that has broken down as a result of this challenge that has lasted for more than a decade now.

Q: One last question, Acting President of the Government. Do you now have a date set for the exhumation of [Francisco] Franco? Do you have a date in mind?

Acting President of the Government: Well, we are preparing it now. I feel that the Supreme Court has been unanimous in its ruling and that this is a great victory for Spanish democracy. I believe, differently from what the conservative parties do, that this makes our democracy stronger, because dignity, memory, justice and redress make our democracy stronger, not weaker. And I hope that during October we can exhume and rebury the remains of the dictator.

Q: Do you believe that this might have an effect on the election result? Whether this may be a reason or not, you pushed through the exhumation of Franco's remains. Do you believe this may have an effect in the elections by doing what must be done - the exhumation and everything else - in this month of October, just before the elections?

Acting President of the Government: I am not looking at things in these terms; I say that with all honesty. I look at this in historical terms. I believe that the day this occurs, the day that the mausoleum is closed to the dictator, the day in which the remains of the dictator cease to lie with the remains of the victims, Spain will have changed. Spain is going to change, the circle of the Transition will be closed and, consequently, we will live in a democracy that is strengthened based on principles that I believe are very positive, such as dignity, memory, redress and justice.

Q: Pedro Sánchez, Acting President of the Government and Socialist Party candidate in the elections to be held on 10 November, thank you very much for coming here and good night.

Acting President of the Government: My pleasure.

(Transcript revised by the State Secretariat for Communication)

Non official translation