Interview on programme 'Good Morning Aragon' on Aragon Television

Zaragoza

PEDRO SÁNCHEZ, Acting President of the Government

Interviewer: Carolina González

Q: Pedro Sánchez, Acting President of the Government, thank you for coming to Aragon Television on your visit to this autonomous region.

Acting President of the Government: My pleasure.

Q: Several months now with a caretaker government, elections in the middle, snap elections, a failed investiture. Do you appreciate why part of society, a significant part, is tired of the political class? What's more, this is now one of the three main concerns of the Spanish people, according to the latest CIS poll.

Acting President of the Government: Absolutely, and I share their frustration But look, beyond the fact that we do indeed need to repeat the elections on 10 November, I feel that it is much more pressing to do away with this provisional situation, with this interim situation that we have been in for five years now. And hence, I feel that 10 November is a great opportunity to open up a period of stability, once and for all, that this country needs and to be able to count on a stable, sound government that can address the challenges that lie ahead

Q: Can Spain afford these months with a government paralysis? Because it is true that, whilst there has been a caretaker government, there are certain things that cannot be done.

Acting President of the Government: It is clear that there is an opportunity cost. It is clear that, for example, as regards investment, these are paralysed as a result of political uncertainty. But it is also true that on 28 April, and also on 26 May, the Spanish people were fairly clear in their verdict as to who they wanted to govern the country. They wanted the Socialist Party to govern. In fact, we received a 28% backing in the elections. The second largest political force only obtained 16%. But, unfortunately, this progressive government that I tried to form over these months could not be achieved as a result of the stalemate imposed in the Lower House of Parliament.

At any event, I feel that it is important to put these regrets behind us. And also put any reproaches behind us. I feel that we must launch a positive campaign, which is what the Socialist Party will do, explaining the reasons why it is important to turn out to vote on 10 November. And the main issue is that on 11 November, the day after, a government can be formed with full powers to tackle all these challenges.

Q: Are you afraid that on 10 November a great many people will abstain?

Acting President of the Government: Spain is a country that has always taken part in electoral processes. In fact, in the repeat elections in 2016, there was a turnout of close to 70%. It is also true that on 28 April we had a turnout of almost 77% if we also include the CERA [absent residents] vote. Hence, the election result in April had great legitimacy. But, at any event, I believe that on 10 November, our citizens will turn out with more information available to them regarding what the different political parties have done.

The people who voted for Unidas Podemos are aware that what their party has done over these last five years is prevent the formation of a Socialist Party government on four occasions and, in the case of Ciudadanos, this is a party that emerged to challenge the pro-independence movement, while what it has done is expel Valls who precisely had to choose between the bad and the worse. And hence, he voted for Ada Colau as Mayor of Barcelona to try to stop Esquerra Republicana, let's say, from now running the City Council of Barcelona. It also presented itself as a party that wanted to offer stability to the country, whereas it has shown itself to be a party that has not contributed to this stability; quite the opposite, it has contributed to this stalemate, which is why we now have to repeat the elections.

Q: Right now we are in Aragon. You have decided to visit this autonomous region. I wanted to ask you about the vision you have for Aragon, for this region, because it is true that, on many occasions, when people talk in Madrid, they talk about some regions more often than others, as might be the case of Aragon. Do you appreciate that there are people in some regions, such as here, for example, that may feel that there is a first-class and a second-class Spain?

Acting President of the Government: There is, above all, a public debate, published opinion, particularly from the media in Madrid, that seeks to impose a fairly standardised, but quite artificial, vision of what Spain represents. I feel that Spain is a diverse country, a very plural country in territorial terms, with different accents, different tones, and with very different problems.

In Aragon, it is clear that the debate on infrastructures, on rural depopulation, on regional financing, and consequently, on cohesion, in short, regional cohesion, is one of the most important debates.

We have clearly tried over the last 15 months, even as a caretaker government, to step up our commitment to the Cantabrian-Mediterranean Corridor. We have precisely included this important project in the Trans-European Network, so that European funding can be used in its implementation.

We also set in motion the whole repopulation strategy, which affects the demographic challenge. What we must do now is accompany this with a new National Budget. We have also said to the operators that they must guarantee, before the end of this year, access to Internet in all those municipalities with less than 5,000 inhabitants. Hence, I believe it is important that there is, let's say, a much richer debate in Spanish politics and that this is also related to the territorial realities of such important regions as Aragon.

Q: You have touched upon several matters that are very important for this region. One, which it also shares with the rest, is the need for financing. These 7 billion euros to be distributed among the regions that have been retained by Central Government, as it is only a caretaker government, are pending. Aragon is due some 400 million euros. Acting Minister Montero has already said that it will arrive before the end of the year. Could you be more precise about when this financing might filter down to the regions?

Acting President of the Government: The first thing I find very striking is the attitude of the People's Party and Ciudadanos, two political organisations that voted against the Draft Budget we presented at the start of the year - and was rejected as a result of the conservative parties and the pro-independence forces joining up - and which also voted against the stability targets that gave more room to the regional governments to attend to the rebuilding of the Welfare State, which is important for public policies tied to healthcare, long-term care, and also with jobs in those areas under regional jurisdiction, particularly active employment policies.

In short, we have a commitment to the regional governments. The payments on account under the 2018 Budget are being duly distributed among the regional governments. The debate is the update in regard to 2019. We are studying with the State legal services and, above all, with the Ministry of the Treasury, how to try and provide a response to this just demand from the regional governments, and I hope that we will be able to resolve this sooner rather than later. I hope that in a matter of weeks we will be able to resolve this important claim from the regional governments.

Q: In other words, might this financing arrive in October, Acting President of the Government; at the end of October, beginning of November?

Acting President of the Government: That is our intention; we will try and make that happen. We must remember that, at a very similar time to what we are going through now, which was at the end of 2016, the People's Party in government refused point blank to entertain any possibility of handing out these updates of the payments on account. In our case, we will try and push through to the maximum, let's say, the possibilities of opening this door so that the regions receive these resources. Among other things, because this is a government committed to the Welfare State, and to regional financing. In short, to financing policies that are very important to the daily lives of our citizens.

When we speak about a health centre, not only in Zaragoza or in Huesca, but also in small municipalities, we are talking about regional financing. When we talk about rural schools we are also talking about regional financing. I think the demands from the regional governments are also fair and we will try and offer a response.

Q: You talk about government commitments. Are you also committed to depopulation? Aragon is well aware of what a disperse and ageing population means. It is very expensive to provide public services. Are you committed? What solution does the government have to combat depopulation? This Friday there will be a five-minute shutdown in 23 Spanish cities, more than 100 platforms are going to shut down to ask for measures from the government to combat depopulation. What recipe does Pedro Sánchez have to combat depopulation?

Acting President of the Government: This is a government committed to cohesion. And cohesion must be both social and territorial. In other words, opportunities must be extended to each and every town and village in our country, particularly in those regions that suffer from depopulation.

We were a government that, in little more than 12 months, approved the Demographic Challenge Strategy, a task that was hanging over from the previous administration; there was a Conference of Regional Presidents in 2016, I seem to remember, at which former President of the Government Rajoy met with the presidents of the regional governments at that time who then instructed, let's say, the Government of Spain to approve this strategy.

And we did this in record time. These guidelines were approved at a Council of Ministers meeting. And what are they? Well, I believe that they are closely related to Internet connectivity and also to infrastructures. That is why we are implementing in Aragon - at quite a quick pace, I believe - all those railway infrastructures, but also roads that were pending in Aragon, particularly with the province of Huesca and Zaragoza, although I don't want to forget Teruel.

And I also believe they are closely related to what we mentioned earlier, to the design of economic resources that must be placed in the hands of the regional governments and also of the local councils and regional councils to guarantee that public services are accessible on a daily basis for residents of the smallest villages.

Just look, one of the measures I am most proud of, when we had our full powers, was the approval of 80 million euros for provincial councils to boost job creation in small- and medium-sized municipalities.

I believe that this is the capacity that the State has to provide a response, if not 100% then at least to offer those opportunities that the residents of these small municipalities need.

Q: With regard to depopulation, Acting President of the Government, you will now be aware that in the upcoming general elections on 10 November, the citizens' platform 'Teruel Existe' will be standing in Teruel. What do you think about a citizen movement, a residents' movement, standing in the general elections and, moreover, that its only electoral programme is a list of infrastructures that are pending in the province of Teruel? Would you be self-critical in this regard?

Acting President of the Government: Well, let's see, as regards infrastructures, the Government of Spain has committed to implementing them. Second, I had the chance in the month of August to meet up with the platform. And third, I would say that it is very interesting that this Electoral Act has always been criticised as a law that only almost exclusively benefitted just two parties, the Socialist Party and the People's Party, depending somewhat on the social majorities they have; but in each election process we have new parties standing.

And, as new political parties emerge, I believe that it is very clear that there is only one political party that can guarantee what I believe Spain needs to implement these investments. Just one. One government. We need a government with full executive powers. We need a stable legislature, that is, one that lasts for four years. We cannot live from hand to mouth. We need coherence in terms of the country's goals.

We have identified the challenges facing our country, which are related to jobs and the sustainability of the public pension system. That are related to the digitalisation of our economy and the impact this will have on the education system and on training for the new jobs of the future. And, above all, that are related to vocational training, which is one of the main challenges, and Aragon is at the forefront.

Third, the ecological transition, which must also be fair. I am thinking, for example, about Andorra, but also about other places. And I believe that Aragon is making a very decisive and outstanding commitment in terms of wind farms and photovoltaic energy.

Fourth, real and effective equality between men and women. Fifth, the fight against social exclusion. And lastly, the State of Autonomies, and obviously everything related to the demographic challenge, with the water pact that our country needs. And finally, the secessionist challenge in Catalonia.

Hence, these six challenges, I believe, represent the main goals that require stability, that require a government with full powers to tackle them. Because that is where our future is at stake. And not only the future in Teruel, put also the future in Aragon and throughout Spain.

Infrastructures are undoubtedly important, but a political project for a great nation like ours needs much more substance. And I believe that at present, it is only the Socialist Party that can guarantee this.

Q: Infrastructures are obviously important for any given territory. That is why, and you mentioned this earlier - the Cantabrian-Mediterranean Corridor - some people are saying that due to this unstable government, this caretaker government, certain subsidies that must be granted by the European Union, European funds for this project, are in jeopardy. Are these subsidies in jeopardy?

Acting President of the Government: Quite the opposite. Thanks to the work of this government, we have included this project in the Trans-European Network. Just a few days ago, moreover, in regard to the Master Plan for the Zaragoza-Teruel-Sagunto Infrastructure, the Board of Directors of ADIF, the public company ADIF, put two new projects out to tender, valued at in excess of 40 million euros. In short, we have a government committed to these infrastructures for Aragon, and also for Teruel. And as I said, I believe that a project for a country such as ours requires a great many variables. Many questions which are undoubtedly related to infrastructure, but also to social cohesion, to territorial cohesion, and to that end I believe that, at this time, the only party that can offer this is the Socialist Party.

What have I tried over these last few months? I have tried to form a government that was progressive, because that was the mandate to come out of the ballot box, what the Spanish people asked for on 28 April. They also wanted a stable government, that is, one that did not depend on the pro-independence forces, and we are unfortunately seeing what is happening in Catalonia. We have been undergoing a crisis of co-existence that has lasted for nearly a decade now. And finally, they wanted a cohesive government, that is, not two governments in one or three governments in one.

Spain has a lot at stake over the next 10 years and I believe that 10 November is a great opportunity to close off this provisional period that we have been in for the last five years and open up a period of stability that allows us to tackle these challenges with certain guarantees.

I obviously commit to speak with all the political forces, something I feel I have done over all these recent months. But, above all, I feel that what is most important is to put the general interest above any party interests.

And that is what I ask our citizens for: confidence to be able to move forwards and not cast away on this island we have been on for so many months.

Q: You mention the issue of Catalonia. You have said that a caretaker government can apply Article 155 perfectly well, but what conditions would have to prevail in Catalonia for you to apply this article of the Constitution?

Acting President of the Government: Well look, the same conditions as the first and only time round that Article 155 has been applied.

Q: In other words, would there need to be an illegal referendum?

Acting President of the Government: No, no, no. There would need to be the following. First, the basic principles of measures of this nature. The first thing must be democratic firmness. The second must be proportionality, and the third must be the unity of all political parties.

Look, in relation to democratic firmness, what we must be very clear about is that the government must safeguard co-existence at all times. Who maintains co-existence? Who protects it? Self-rule in Catalonia. Here, in Aragon, the Statute of Autonomy of Aragon; there, the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia.

If the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia and the Spanish Constitution are violated again as a result of the unilateral actions of the pro-independence forces, it is clear that the government will have to act with democratic firmness and recover the self-rule that may hypothetically have been violated by the pro-independence forces.

Second, proportionality. We are not a government that wants to fan the flames. We want to strengthen affinities, we want to recover and rebuild co-existence. We don't want to further polarise the situation in Catalonia. That is why it is very important, not so much to have parliamentary legitimacy - which may exist because there is a large enough majority in the Upper House to apply it - but for the citizens of Catalonia and Spanish society as a whole to understand why this Article 155 of the Constitution must be applied, should that situation arise. I feel that this point is very important, that of proportionality. And finally, I believe that this is an action that requires a consensus between the different political forces.

That is how I understood it when Mr Rajoy, as President of the Government, felt obliged to apply Article 155. Just look, there were some things that even I did not agree with. There were some mistakes that Mr Rajoy and the Government of Spain had committed. But I bit my tongue, and why? Because I felt that the most important thing was to convey the unity of those political parties that defend the Spanish Constitution and the State of the Autonomies.

That is what I would like the opposition to reciprocate if I feel obliged to have to apply a measure of this nature; for them to be aware that they are not supporting the Socialist Party government, but that they are supporting the Government of Spain, the State, at a critical time, in the event that this takes place in the coming weeks.

Q: You mentioned earlier the challenge of decarbonisation, of providing the mining basins in Spain with an economic alternative. Here, indeed, in the area of Andorra, in the province of Teruel, they are closely watching the closure of the thermal power station. More than 4,000 direct and indirect jobs depend on that factory. What plans does the government have to provide them with a real alternative, beyond the fact that Europe has ordered that, which must be heeded, because that is what other countries are doing? But what real alternatives will these citizens have who, moreover, live in the rural environment, to losing their jobs and having no opportunities?

Acting President of the Government: Of course, I fully understand their concern. But look, the private sector has already taken this on board. I am not specifically referring to Andorra, but to this transition that must be made to renewable energies, sources of clean energy.

Last week, I was at the United Nations General Assembly; and I was with the main investors in Spain. The main large companies involved in the energy sector are well aware that we must change our energy model, that we must move towards clean energies. That coal, that thermal power stations, are sources of energy and of energy production that are now more closely linked to the past than the present or future. I am not saying this from a regulatory point of view; look at what I am saying. I am talking about the private sector, about what companies are saying and what the financial sector is also saying, which is the sector that pays for or finances this type of power station.

Hence, what the Government of Spain cannot do is lie to its citizens. What is cannot do is hide the reality. But that is what the previous administration did. And that is why we find ourselves faced with situations in which we must talk with the residents, in which we must talk with the districts affected and say to them that this government will not leave anyone behind. That this ecological transition will be just.

In the 12 months that we were in government with full powers, what did we do? We approved a National Integrated Energy and Climate Plan. We also approved a Just Ecological Transition Plan for the mining basins, to which we have contributed more than 100 million euros. And also an Action Plan for these mining basins, above all, to guarantee some form of social protection, to enhance the employability of all those workers that may be affected, with a provision of more than 100 million euros. And what I can assure you is that we are obviously talking with all the companies to offer opportunities related to clean energies.

Here in Aragon, this is being done, I believe, in an outstanding fashion. Clearly a decisive commitment is being made to wind energy, to photovoltaic energy and, of course, the Government of Spain will make every effort to undertake this ecological transition that we need, that is being demanded of us by the young people of Spain, who went out into the streets the other day demanding responses to this climate emergency. In the end, we also need to ensure that the number of people affected both from a territorial perspective and also from an employment perspective is as small as possible. No-one must be left behind.

Q: We are running out of time, Acting President of the Government. But I want to ask you three more questions that only require, I think, a very quick answer.

The first regarding the exhumation of [Francisco] Franco. The justice system has given the go-ahead in all regards. It has also said that there is not a town planning problem. No problem with the licence to remove the remains of the dictator. The question is, when will the government do this?

Acting President of the Government: Well, as you know, this falls to the Council of Ministers. You will find out soon. It is our intention to exhume and rebury the dictator as soon as possible. It is clear that we must notify the family of the date on which this will take place. Hence, I cannot give you an exact date, but I can assure you that it will be as soon as possible.

Q: The emergence of Más Pais on the political stage to participate in the upcoming general elections. Do you think that the party of [Íñigo] Errejón will do more harm to the Socialist Party than thought a priori, for example, in constituencies such as Zaragoza?

Acting President of the Government: As I said before, there is an increasing number of parties, but I believe it is clear that there is an increasing need to form a government on 10 November. We need to know on 11 November that a government can be formed. I feel the question is very simple on 10 November, do we want to see the stalemate continue on 11 November, or do we want to see a government? And at this time the only party that can guarantee a government is the Socialist Party.

Aside from that, what we are seeing is that the space held by Unidas Podemos five years ago is being fought over by the two people who founded Unidas Podemos. And now one of them has set up his own party. We are watching this from a certain distance, with respect but, at any event, this is something that does not affect us in the sense that they are not fighting over the space held by the Socialist Party, but for a space to the left of the Socialist Party.

Q: And my last question, Acting President of the Government, in organisational terms in relation to your party. You are visiting Aragon, a Socialist Federation with which you have had your ups and downs, above all with the regional president, Javier Lambán. How are relations at this time?

Acting President of the Government: Very good. I believe that, in short, we have some very intense debates in the Socialist Party. On some occasions, they may be too intense, but with Javier I have a very good personal and political relationship. I believe that, in short, given politics at this time, we need to renew a majority to be able to develop the actions of a socialist government for two legislatures, and that would be a great success. And hence, what I have conveyed to Javier Lambán, as regional president in Aragon, and also as a regional socialist president, is that if we are honoured with continuing to govern Spain as from 11 November, then we will help Aragon to develop, to respond to the questions and challenges ahead.

Q: Pedro Sánchez, Acting President of the Government, thank you for sharing a few minutes of your time with Aragon Television, on the programme 'Good Morning Aragon'.

Thank you.

Acting President of the Government: A pleasure.

(Transcript revised by State Secretariat for Communication)

Non official translation